1400hp Ecotec - Make That 2.2L Rule!!

[SylenThunder]

:eek: I know, you think I've totally lost it, but check this out. :eek:

I have had the full .pdf of the GM performance manual for a while. Occationally I will open it up and just drool. I've often wanted to share it with you guys, but it's hard to put a 26meg file on the forum, and I haven't been able to host it anywhere. Finally, I found this... :p GM Tuner Source (http://www.gm.com/company/gmtunersource/html/home.htm) :p . Not sure why I never found this before, but somehow it always got missed. This manual mostly covers a Cobalt chassis, but it's the same engine that's in the Vue, and from what I have read in it so far, I see no problems getting your Vue to 400hp without making major modifications to the frame or chassis. (Other than money, that is.) Anyhow, here's the link for all you power hungry Vue owners.

:stoplight Ecotec Race Shop Build Book (http://www.gm.com/company/gmtunersource/html/race_shop_build_book.htm):stoplight


Finances withstanding, I plan to follow the 250hp route and add exhaust, lightweight flywheel, and a stage 2 clutch to my next set of upgrades. So far All I have really done is a Cold Air Intake. (mine's actually outside of the engine compartment to make it a "true" C.A.I.) It's a custom job, and still in the works, I will update with more pics of it as I develop it. Right now it's just my stock intake pipe with the pod cut off, and a 3" PVC going to where my 'bong' used to be. That's where my cone filter is now. Right below the headlamp assembly.

[James Gerber]

Sounds cool.. looking forward to updates :)

(I'm very interested in this custom intake stuff)

jg

[bbnhusky]

yeah i have that whole file, i love reading through it. and i as well am planning on making it at least 250 hp, maybe more, but i plan on doing a few htings different. but i cant tell you, you will have to wait.

[jdmessner]

I hate to keep bringing this up, but those mods are ILLEGAL for highway use! They fundamentally alter the emissions of the vehicle beyond OEM standards. Your vehicle will be illegal to operate of public roads. Registering such a vehicle for highway use with the BMV constitutes a felony. Not to mention, that it illegal for you to sell the vehicle for anything other than racing purposes.

Let's not forget what it will do to the internal components of the engine, in relation to long term durability. You may well get 250hp, for 10,000 miles or so until you have to do a complete rebuild!

Forget what you see on the fast and the furious. It was a movie. It is fiction.

If you want a sports car, go buy a sports car. Quit trying to re-invent the wheel!

[bbnhusky]

I hate to keep bringing this up, but those mods are ILLEGAL for highway use! They fundamentally alter the emissions of the vehicle beyond OEM standards. Your vehicle will be illegal to operate of public roads. Registering such a vehicle for highway use with the BMV constitutes a felony. Not to mention, that it illegal for you to sell the vehicle for anything other than racing purposes.

Let's not forget what it will do to the internal components of the engine, in relation to long term durability. You may well get 250hp, for 10,000 miles or so until you have to do a complete rebuild!

Forget what you see on the fast and the furious. It was a movie. It is fiction.

If you want a sports car, go buy a sports car. Quit trying to re-invent the wheel!
i dont see how it is illegal, maybe in other states with emissions but here in MN there are no emissions. and i still dont see how anything below 250 would be illegal.

[jdmessner]

Pay attention to Page 2, legal information on this PDF:

http://www.gm.com/company/gmtunersource/downloads/introduction.pdf

"This handbook pertains exclusively to engines and vehicles which are used OFF public highways. Federal law PROHIBITS removal or modification of any federally required emission control system on motor vehicles."

Adding a non-factory super-charger, turbo charger, or modification of the emissions system in any way violates federal law....

[TITO]

I break the law every day. You can't be scared all your life.:)

[James Gerber]

I guess it's just a chance certain individuals are willing to risk?

(right out there with vehicles using illegal tires, or 4x4's with inproper wheel coverings/flanges, or vehicles with illegal tinting....etc...)

Also, perhaps there are people out there that actually 'are' using these vehicles for track racing only. This is a great forum to help those individuals out.

jg

[bbnhusky]

I break the law every day. You can't be scared all your life.:)
i second that! :)

[SylenThunder]

Quite a few of the "mods" are stock on some cars with the ecotec engine. At least the ones under 250 hp. Some versions of the Cobalt, and the Sky immediately come to mind. Heck, running a cold air intake breaks that law. So what. When was the last time you got pulled over for having a Jack-in-the-Box head attached to the top of your antenna? It's not DOT approved I can garuntee that. If you are gonna come out here and pull me over, do it. Call the cops and tell them that there's a blue Vue running around eastern Michigan with more horses than it should legally have. See what they do. Even if I get pulled over for speeding with a 400hp, non-federally-approved engine, All I'm gonna get is a speeding ticket. Sheesh. get a life and leave my thread.

Oh, almost forgot, if done properly, using the right parts, and given that you aren't racing 30 miles every weekend.... Under 250hp will not void the warranty on your engine or transmission. As such, I don't think you're likely to blow it up that early. yeah, my engine will need some more maintenece than normal with these mods.... But you know that automatically going into it if you know what you are getting into. And if you don't.... don't do it. common sense. Again I say, get a life and leave. By all means come out here and have me arrested for adding 5 horses to my car. sheesh

[SylenThunder]

On another note..... the parts for the 250hp upgrade are not listed as for off-road use only. Some of the parts for the 400hp upgrade are though.

Did I mention..... leave the thread jdmessner? Don't really mean to offend you, you usually have really constructive posts, but the ones here are really crap.

[Mr Joe Handyman]

All is well and good I see. Another thread trashed. There are certain boundries that you can play with, not all mods to intake and exhaust are illegal. By jdmessner's standards, replacing my muffler at midas instead of with a stock muffler would constitute a violation. That's just not true. If you modify your system so that it falls outside of the federal guidelines, well, that's another issue. But most minor mods will not adverly affect the emissions enough to warrant worrying about it. Run a catback without a muffler, you still have the catalytic converter there. And as long as you don't modify the sensor to fake the computer you're fine. If emissions get out of whak, it'll throw a code. That's not illegal. Even in Texas where they do state inspections on emissions, that will pass. I would imagine that it wouldn't be hard to get a 400hp ecotec to pass as long as it is done correctly. 250hp would be a cinch. How do you think they get all the horsepower into the Sky? It's legal, it's also stock. it's an ecotec. Go figure.

now, enough of the rant for the stupid ppl. the supercharger sounds awesome, but they don't go into the things about exhaust and tranny mods in the 250hp section. I'm guessing that a lightweight flywheel and a stage 1 or stage 2 clutch would be in order. Would you need to get a larger throttle body? And is one made for the Vue's fly-by-wire system? Or would I have to reverse engineer a cable?

[MrSeabass]

I hate to keep bringing this up, but those mods are ILLEGAL for highway use! They fundamentally alter the emissions of the vehicle beyond OEM standards. Your vehicle will be illegal to operate of public roads. Registering such a vehicle for highway use with the BMV constitutes a felony. Not to mention, that it illegal for you to sell the vehicle for anything other than racing purposes.

Sounds like you need to move to South Carolina, because not only do emissions not matter, but I have traded in one car to a Nissan dealership and sold another to Carmax, with both of them having modified intakes/enissions. The feds have yet to arrive at my front door. Oh, and I removed the exhaust recircling air pump from my '77 MGB. Hell, even my dad's Ram had the cat converter replaced wtih a pipe at a muffler shop. Oh noes; we're felons. :rolleyes:

And if you hate bringing it up, then stop bringing it up. Simple as that. It's annoying and no one here cares.

/rant

[MrSeabass]

Sorry, forum stalled; removed double post.

[fotovue]

As a Law Enforcement Officer, I can tell you first hand that if it doesn't violate local emissions standards, and many cities and states do not have emissions standards to begin with, we don't care. Federal laws are federal laws. As a local enforcement agent, we are not permitted to enforce federal traffic and emissions laws. So unless you get pulled over by a local jack*** (and yes, we admit, there are a few in our profession), the EPA, of the FBI, you probably won't get yelled at for changing you exhaust or modifying your vehicle's engine. Not by federal law. If it's illegal according to local or state law, then it can be enforced. Federal laws relating to traffic and emissions are not enforced by non-federal agents here.

My question, and you can see which side of this i'm on....

The sky has the same engine right? So when I get a sky I can mod it to 250-400hp, and I don't even have to start with a red line sky? Cool!!!

[bbnhusky]

that helps a lot, thanks, and i dont think the sky has the same engine, i think it has a 2.4 ecotech.

[pdough]

You mentioned adding up to 250 hp and making changes to the clutch and flywheel. Are you planning on any transmission changes as well? I think the standard getrag F23 is only rated up to 155 ft- lbs. Not sure if it will hold at 250 hp.

I think the new SS Cobalt has a different manual transmission for the 205 hp SC motor. Not sure which model trans is used here but it may be worth looking into.

Keep us posted on the upgrades...

[Vue2007]

I hate to keep bringing this up, but those mods are ILLEGAL for highway use! They fundamentally alter the emissions of the vehicle beyond OEM standards. Your vehicle will be illegal to operate of public roads. Registering such a vehicle for highway use with the BMV constitutes a felony. Not to mention, that it illegal for you to sell the vehicle for anything other than racing purposes.

Let's not forget what it will do to the internal components of the engine, in relation to long term durability. You may well get 250hp, for 10,000 miles or so until you have to do a complete rebuild!

Forget what you see on the fast and the furious. It was a movie. It is fiction.

If you want a sports car, go buy a sports car. Quit trying to re-invent the wheel!

Jdmessner - As far as emissions goes I’m now a lawyer and every state has various laws as long as the vehicle passes the state emissions check it’s up to the owner to choose if they want to modify their automobile.

GM has designed parts to make the ecotec engine perform to 1400 HP. I’m sure that you can easily install the 250 hp parts and with proper maintenance have just as much durability as stock.

I agree that if you want a sports cars buy a sports car, but if you want to modify your ecotec engine then you should also be able to do so. It’s apart of choice and freedom. If we used the text and logic from your post and applied it to autos then we might live in a world cars would not advance. The automobile has advanced from a number of things including racing. A lot of the technology from legal, organized racing and aftermarket products has helped raise the bar for quality and performance of today’s vehicles.

GM has been falling behind in the 4 cylinder market since the imports of the 70s. The ecotec is probably their best 4 cylinder engine to date and apart of what drove development, advancement and now marketing, is the performance and racing appeal of the engine. Now we have a durable versatile 4 cylinder that can perform in racing competitions as well as a Saturn and you want to say tell others don’t modify their cars? Where’s your respect for other people’s choice and freedoms? Where’s your support for innovation and advancement? If you want to leave your car stock that’s great. Why post to other not to personalize their own vehicles? That’s half the fun of having “your own vehicle”.

[bandit77]

[QUOTE=pdough]You mentioned adding up to 250 hp and making changes to the clutch and flywheel. Are you planning on any transmission changes as well? I think the standard getrag F23 is only rated up to 155 ft- lbs. Not sure if it will hold at 250 hp.

I think the new SS Cobalt has a different manual transmission for the 205 hp SC motor. Not sure which model trans is used here but it may be worth looking into.

the redline ion and cobalt ss use a saab tranny that is way more robust than the standard manual transmission in the vue. i would not advise doing any radical engine mods to the vue ecotec/5spd combo unless use beef up or replace the stock tranny. a lightweight flywheel and better clutch won't cut it, you'd probably still destroy the internals. for me the mod i would like to accomplish would be to install the entire drivetrain of the redline ion into the vue...i've found some wrecked rl ions online and i think that if you could salvage the motor/tranny/ecm/harnesses together that it would be a pretty straight forward install. now just add the level 2 performance kit from gm performance and bam! 245hp/230lbft...:yes: :yes: :yes:

[Vue2007]

forgot to mention that an awesome link good to know GM is competing with the imports, giving documentation as wel as retailing the performance parts. 250-1400hp from a four cylinder is impressive. Even with a mild setup it'll ould close the gap between the GM 2.2L and Honda v6 in the vue while still reamaing a durable engine with maintainance. I'm sure after that you could make it pass the stock Honda Vue with drivetrain upgrades as well.

[Spngr311]

Will the stock auto tranny hold up to 250 hp? My g/f would miss her ranger alot less if her 4 cylinder Vue had some more power.

[Mr Joe Handyman]

that's the current question... I think that upgrading the flywheel and going to a stage 2 clutch, (along with the other trans components that you would have to replace as a part of it,) it may be fine. not sure. what's the torque at 250hp? Someone said earlier that the tranny could handle 155ft-lbs, (that dosen't seem like much) but what part of the tranny is the weak link? my mechanic hasn't expressed any need to replace the trans, with the clutch upgrade and the flywheel. I'll have to inquire further next time i'm in.

[burnout]

I don't think the transmission's maximum torque is 155ft-lbs.... That's awfully low, and the getrag is a MUCH better gearbox than that :-P

[Spngr311]

155 ft-lbs can't be the max it can handle. I mean, that leaves very little factor of safety on the system.

[Tom92SCm]

www.ecotecpower.com

There's some J-body cars on this site making some pretty good power with their ecotecs. Surely some of what they have done can be used on the motors in our VUEs.

[Tom92SCm]

Also check out:
http://www.ecotecforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54

[mellissam]

Great link Tom...
I finally de-bonged (was putting in fog-lamps, and the thing was in my way...:) - at first I didn't know what it was, until I searched the threads...LOL) my 2006 auto 4cyl, and wow, what a difference; throttle respnse is much quicker and when it hits 3k+ it roars both in noise and pick-up....Driving around in 'I' so it is in the sweet spot. :cool:
Anyway, I was curious to know what the tranny could take, and there is this link that tells what both the manual and auto can take;

http://media.gm.com/us/powertrain/en/product_services/2007/07truck.htm

Now, these stats are for 2007 models, but I doubt there is much difference from the 06, as they say there is no difference between these years...

Lucky for me, the auto can take more punishment;
Maximum engine torque: 205 lb-ft (278 Nm)
Maximum gearbox torque: 325 lb-ft (440 Nm)

Whereas the Getrag;
Maximum engine torque: 155 lb-ft ( 210 Nm)
Maximum gearbox torque: 170 lb-ft ( 230 Nm )

Quite the difference...maybe the clutch has a lot to do with it?
Finally, as a fan of the auto transmission life, I feel vindicated....LOL:D

[Tom92SCm]

Whereas the Getrag;
Maximum engine torque: 155 lb-ft ( 210 Nm)
Maximum gearbox torque: 170 lb-ft ( 230 Nm )


These numbers are interesting. Peak torque on the 2007 2.2L Ecotec motor is 149 ft-lbs (see dyno graph HERE (http://media.gm.com/us/powertrain/en/product_services/2007/HPT%20Library/Ecotec/2007%20L61/2007_Ecotec_L61_Saturn%20VUE.pdf)). According to the above numbers, that leaves only 6 ft-lbs for room for growth. Maybe I'm interpretting these numbers wrong.

[James Gerber]

I'll probably never beable to do any of this stuff to my engine.. but noticed that in the section for the supercharger (pg.27) of the guide it says:

Note: Minimum 92 Octane fuel is required after this installation

All the stations around me pretty much offer up to 87,89,91... but not 92.

jg

[Tom92SCm]

What's the altitude where you live? Octane requirements decrease as elevation increases. In the mountains in Colorado, the highest octane you can find is maybe 89 or so. The cheap unleaded is 85 or so. So 91 octane might be fine where you are. I bet it's 92 for sea level.

[Big Nickel]

I'll probably never beable to do any of this stuff to my engine.. but noticed that in the section for the supercharger (pg.27) of the guide it says:

Note: Minimum 92 Octane fuel is required after this installation

All the stations around me pretty much offer up to 87,89,91... but not 92.

jg



Sunoco stations carry 94 Octane.... plus Sunoco uses up to 10% ethanol. So one can enjoy increased performance... and feel good about using some homegrown corn in their fuel.:)

http://www.sunoco.ca/default.aspx?ID=2390


Cheers,

[FReQ]

while I was doing some research on the Getrag F23 and F35, I came across this forum and thought I'd pass on some info. right now, I own a 2002 Cavalier Z24. I'll be taking out the 2.4 LD9 and trans, and swapping in the 2.2 Eco and trans, hopefully next month.

I'm a member of j-body.org, and there are several members who have gone quite a bit over the "torque limit" of the Getrag. there are two members that I can think of that are in the 12 second category in their Cavaliers, and I'm pretty sure that they have surpassed that limit.
the only real upgrades to the Getrag's that I've found so far is the Quaife LSD (if the trans doesn't already have it, I believe there was is an option for the Cobalt SS/SC with the F35. I could be wrong though), and the clutch (usually the SPEC Stage II or II+ is used). you might also look up Team Green, which also makes an LSD for the Getrag.
the only other way that I know of to really strengthen the trans would be to take it apart and get the whole thing cryo-treated. what this does is aligns the molecules in the metal, which strengthens it quite a bit. I'm not sure on any pricing, because I haven't really looked that hard, but I imagine it can't be all that much.

also, when the SC is installed, the vehicle has to be taken to the dealership for a reflash. from what I understand, GM does some really funky things with the new tune for the SC, especially in the timing area. the higher octane is required to keep the knock sensor happy.

hope I helped, even a little bit.
:usa:

[pdough]

Thanks FReQ for the "real life" info we were looking for and welcome to SaturnFans! We all know that what an item is rated for is not always what it is ultimately capable of in short bursts. My guess is that the F23 is rated 155 ft-lbs based on some testing that Getrag presumably did. They probably got it to consistently break at, say around 200 ft-lbs (strictly a guess) in testing and rated it at 155 ft-lbs for longevity and everyday drivability.

"I don't think the transmission's maximum torque is 155ft-lbs.... That's awfully low, and the getrag is a MUCH better gearbox than that :-P"

I think MellissaM's post backs up my numbers although I cannot match F23 with any transmission numbers on Getrag's site. Can't find any trans that match 155 ft-lbs of torque but some are close. Not sure what the difference is between engine torque and gearbox torque... 155 vs 170 ft-lbs? Maybe someone can better inform me... Have some guesses but only that.

My original post was meant as an FYI for those that might want to do some higher $ HP upgrades on their motors may want to look into upgrading their transmissions. No point in spending $1000's on HP gains and have a tranny pop at the line... May want to spend a few extra and upgrade the tranny as well.

FreQ's post shows that the rated numbers aren't always the limit in the real world. I agree the transmission is better than the numbers may say but I'd spend the extra money to have a transmission that is better matched to the horsepower of the motor as in the SC'ed ION's, Cobalt's etc.

Pdough

[FReQ]

the only internal issues I've heard of with the Getrag are the spider gears breaking. unfortunately, there's no real upgrade for these. the only real means of strenghtening those would be the cryo-treatment. again, if you're putting down really high numbers in the 1/4 mile, the trans would be fine, as I don't see anyone dragging their daily driver, family vehicle, etc. everyday.
short bursts with this trans would be okay. the real killer for these things is going to be wheel hop, causing the vehicle to eat axle shafts and damaging the trans. the fix for that is suspension mods and upgrades, along with polyurethane motor and trans mounts.