Should GM Import the Opel Astra from Europe as Saturn's Next Small Car?

[Charlie]

Should GM import the Opel Astra from Europe as Saturn's next small car?

The Beacon Journal reports that General Motors will build a new Pontiac small car, not the rumored Saturn ION replacement, at GM's Lordstowns, Ohio manufacturing facility. GM made the announcement at the 2006 National Automobile Dealers Association annual meeting in Orlando, Florida earlier this week. Incidentally, sources tell SaturnFans.com – and a search of the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office's website confirms – that Saturn has registered the name 'Astra' with the organization. Astra is the name of the Opel small car sold in Europe. GM executives have gone on record saying that Saturn and Opel will collaborate on new models. Saturn will ship a version of its SKY roadster to Europe as the Opel GT beginning next year. Will GM import the Astra to the United States as the ION replacement? Perhaps. Such a move would give Saturn almost instant access to a new small car, and it would circumvent any North American production issues. Currently only Lordstown and Spring Hill are configured to build GM Delta-based vehicles in the United States; the Spring Hill line is scheduled to be shut down and retooled at the end of this year.

Click here (http://www.saturnfans.com/Cars/Future/willgmimportastra.shtml) for the full story.Post your thoughts.

Thanks,
Charlie

[05vueblue]

I think it would be a cool car for some. I wouldn't want such a small car, but would be nice if they bring the diesel in it, could compete with the golf TD.

[wolfman]

Given a choice between the nest Small Saturn being a rebadged Chevy or Pontiac or a rebadged Opel. Give me the Opel. My first car was a 70' Opel GT. I still miss that car. I too would like to see a diesel option in a small 4 door sedan.

[saturnd00d]

They should definitely bring it over. It'll quickly become one of the best sellers if they keep the looks and build quality on par with Opel's version.

[saturncanuck]

I don't have a problem with it -- the Astra is way cool.

It may p*ss off a few UAW peeps, though.

:sneeze:

[saturn_69]

I say bring it on....in 3dr and 5dr only to further differentiate it from other more mainstream GM models. I think the Astra is absolutely beautiful, and it already has the "Euro-flavor" baked right in. Just don't detune it or soften the suspension, it's German, let it stay that way. No more dumbing down for American tastes. It's just like the BMW, Mercedes and VW cars....if you don't 'get it', you never will.

[cyclingplatypus]

I say yes.

[Patrick_97SC2]

I say build it in America and not import it.

[unkle bik]

As a vehicle, yes. One sharp car.
What most people don't know that Opel's reputation for quality is not all that buena in Europe.:hmm:

But I would like to see it built here in the US.:usa:

[Uzzy]

What are they gonna call it the Saturn VIBE?

[JDRedline]

Sorry, I don't like hatchbacks.

Show me a coupe version and then I'd consider it.

[saturn_69]

What are they gonna call it the Saturn VIBE?
Huh? It's a hatchback, not a baby SUV. It looks nothing like the Vibe. Oh, wait, it does have 4 wheels...yep, it's a Vibe clone....NOT. hehehe

[saturn_69]

As a vehicle, yes. One sharp car.
What most people don't know that Opel's reputation for quality is not all that buena in Europe.:hmm:

But I would like to see it built here in the US.:usa:
Apparently, Opel has improved quality a great deal. They sell every Astra they make, and it's gotten some great reviews.

[saturn_69]

I say build it in America and not import it.
Mmmmmm....can't yet. It isn't built on the Delta platform so it can't go to Springhill or to Lordstown or that place in Mexico they build the HHR. But....aren't they shutting down the Springhill plant to retool? And isn't that retooling taking place shortly before the new Delta based Opel Astra debuts in Europe in 2008? Could it be? Oh...the signs point to maybe it will be built in Springhill, after the retooling...perhaps? Let's hope so, I mean after all, the Opel GT is being built in the Sky/Solstice plant and sent overseas.

[tackepj]

I'm in favor of it--Saturn could really benefit from the Astra. I'd love the diesel option, too, but I think new diesel emissions regs will prohibit the diesel from our shores. Too bad.

[gkl]

Opel Astra would become the smallest Saturn ever. Only 169 inches long. 3dr/5dr, just a bit shorter than the Matrix/Vibe so it will compete directly with them and the Subaru Impreza/Saab 9-3x. And the Optra hatch.

It may be good for small/young/single people on a budget, but it is no Ion replacement. With no Ion, there will be a pretty large gap between Astra and Aura.

[Uzzy]

Huh? It's a hatchback, not a baby SUV. It looks nothing like the Vibe. Oh, wait, it does have 4 wheels...yep, it's a Vibe clone....NOT. hehehe
OK, it looks like a Mazda3 rear ended a VIBE. I just don't like hatchbacks. :tounge:

[Uzzy]

Opel Astra would become the smallest Saturn ever. Only 169 inches long. 3dr/5dr, just a bit shorter than the Matrix/Vibe so it will compete directly with them and the Subaru Impreza/Saab 9-3x. And the Optra hatch.

It may be good for small/young/single people on a budget, but it is no Ion replacement. With no Ion, there will be a pretty large gap between Astra and Aura.
HA! see, Vibe competition.
What about the Dodge Caliber? Along the same lines it looks like.

[Galileo]

I have a friend that likes to travel in Europe and i thought i'd share her remarks to this speculative information:

"Brian

You see the opel Astra everywhere in Europe…. I would love a small car like this just to drive back and forth to work!"

(She drives a 2006 Pontiac Grand Prix and her daily work commute is about 30 - 40 miles each way)

Personally, i like it enough to say yes, go ahead, GM! Like Wolfman said, i'd rather see Saturn with a unique product than an obvious Chevy Cobalt clone.

[jentzsch23]

Not sure exactly what kind of car the Asra is. Im sure if I can find some infor on the kind of car, I might be better able to five my feedback. I will do some digging and if anyone has some info on this car, let me know. Thanks!

[Citation84]

I say bring it on....in 3dr and 5dr only to further differentiate it from other more mainstream GM models. I think the Astra is absolutely beautiful, and it already has the "Euro-flavor" baked right in. Just don't detune it or soften the suspension, it's German, let it stay that way. No more dumbing down for American tastes. It's just like the BMW, Mercedes and VW cars....if you don't 'get it', you never will.
The "dumbing down" comes from GM's execs thinking they "know" what American drivers want. The fish rots from the head.:D [Opel collaborated on the J Car, btw, but exited the program when GM insisted on doing it "their way" with OHV engines and 4 speed manuals when everyone else had OHCs and 5 speeds. Opel used it's own engines, transmissions and suspension settings etc.]
And after the Catera,the L Series [euro based] Focus[ Euro based], Contour [Euro based] the troublesome VW Beetle [among other VW products] and recent declines in Mercedes quality as well as a history of being as or more troublesome than US cars in data covering 20 years published by Consumer Reports [I know I know, but the data spans two decades, in this case enough of a time line to show a trend], I have a real
problem buying into alleged European product "superiority".
I think that "Euro flavor" may have left a bad taste in the mouths of many.
The last thing Saturn needs is another product with lots of intro bugs.]
I guess this is the final nail in Saturn's philosophical coffin.Their import killer imported from overseas.......
Saturn 69: It IS a beautiful car and I would love to see it here, I just don't buy that it will be automatically "better" because it comes from Germany. I'd rather see it built at Spring Hill myself.....

[bue05]

I think i would go with yes as long as tghe car is great quality and does not hurt saturn/gm or u.s. workers, mfg, buyers, sellers. If its good for everyone envolved why not!! :) I look forward to the future with saturn products and hope they continue to make fun, interesting, sporty vehicles. I like some others no nothing about this astra vehicle and need to do some research, I think it will be cool. my ugly 2 cents worth bue05:drool:

[saturn_69]

Opel Astra would become the smallest Saturn ever. Only 169 inches long. 3dr/5dr, just a bit shorter than the Matrix/Vibe so it will compete directly with them and the Subaru Impreza/Saab 9-3x. And the Optra hatch.

It may be good for small/young/single people on a budget, but it is no Ion replacement. With no Ion, there will be a pretty large gap between Astra and Aura.
Here's some specs comparing the Astra with the Ion QC:

Length - QC:185 / Astra: 169 (BTW, that's only 8 inches front and rear difference, which is nothing)
Wheelbase - QC: 103 / Astra: 102
Width - QC:67.9 / Astra: 68
Height - QC: 56 / Astra: 56
Track f/r QC:58.8/58.4 / Astra: 58/57.6

Interior:

Legroom f/r QC:42/32 / Astra:42/33.7
Headroom f/r QC: 38.9/36.5 / Astra: 37.8/37
Shoulder room f/r QC:54/51 / Astra: 52/43

Seems pretty darn close to me. The main reason the Astra is shorter than the Ion is that the Ion has some really long overhangs in the front and rear; the Astra doesn't. Much like any German car, the Astra has short overhangs. I say it's a pretty good replacement for the Ion, and it's within fractions of an inch the same size. I see no problem having this beneath the Aura...guess what? That's the way the Astra and Vectra are in Europe and nobody seems to mind. We don't need 15 different sized Saturns to fit us as our waistlines grow. Heck, the idea of Saturn importing the Astra makes me want to lose more weight, not only to fit better and be healhier, but because if I weigh less, the car can go faster and corner better.:D Bring it, Saturn.

[saturn_69]

The "dumbing down" comes from GM's execs thinking they "know" what American drivers want. The fish rots from the head.:D [Opel collaborated on the J Car, btw, but exited the program when GM insisted on doing it "their way" with OHV engines and 4 speed manuals when everyone else had OHCs and 5 speeds. Opel used it's own engines, transmissions and suspension settings etc.]
And after the Catera,the L Series [euro based] Focus[ Euro based], Contour [Euro based] the troublesome VW Beetle [among other VW products] and recent declines in Mercedes quality as well as a history of being as or more troublesome than US cars in data covering 20 years published by Consumer Reports [I know I know, but the data spans two decades, in this case enough of a time line to show a trend], I have a real
problem buying into alleged European product "superiority".
I think that "Euro flavor" may have left a bad taste in the mouths of many.
The last thing Saturn needs is another product with lots of intro bugs.]
I guess this is the final nail in Saturn's philosophical coffin.Their import killer imported from overseas.......
Saturn 69: It IS a beautiful car and I would love to see it here, I just don't buy that it will be automatically "better" because it comes from Germany. I'd rather see it built at Spring Hill myself.....
And yet people flock to BMW, Mercedes and VW...BMW has been profitable for years now, some of that has to be perceived quality based on German engineering, yes? I've read favorable reviews of the Astra (heck, all the newer Opels/Vauxhalls) from European websites, they are constantly commenting on the increased quality of build and materials in the new Opels/Vauxhalls. Could there be something to this? I think, and predict, that when Springhill shuts down to retool, the next gen Opel Astra will be built here in America, not necessarily exported to Europe since they have 3 factories already, but as the new Ion replacement. That's in what, 2008? We'll see.

[gkl]

Opel Astra would become the smallest Saturn ever. Only 169 inches long. 3dr/5dr, just a bit shorter than the Matrix/Vibe so it will compete directly with them and the Subaru Impreza/Saab 9-3x. And the Optra hatch.

It may be good for small/young/single people on a budget, but it is no Ion replacement. With no Ion, there will be a pretty large gap between Astra and Aura.

Before someone else picks up on my memory lapse -- of course, the Sky will be the smallest Saturn at about 157 inches.

But my point was that Astra is significantly smaller than even the SL or SC.

For those looking for Astra specs, check out the Opel web site.

[saturn_69]

Before someone else picks up on my memory lapse -- of course, the Sky will be the smallest Saturn at about 157 inches.

But my point was that Astra is significantly smaller than even the SL or SC.

For those looking for Astra specs, check out the Opel web site.
As far as exterior length, yes. But, it's within millimeters of - or even equal to - the Ion in every other dimension, including the most important: interior space. It just has short front and rear overhangs, as many German cars do. Not a problem.

[Citation84]

And yet people flock to BMW, Mercedes and VW...BMW has been profitable for years now, some of that has to be perceived quality based on German engineering, yes? I've read favorable reviews of the Astra (heck, all the newer Opels/Vauxhalls) from European websites, they are constantly commenting on the increased quality of build and materials in the new Opels/Vauxhalls. Could there be something to this? I think, and predict, that when Springhill shuts down to retool, the next gen Opel Astra will be built here in America, not necessarily exported to Europe since they have 3 factories already, but as the new Ion replacement. That's in what, 2008? We'll see.
Here's hoping. My main concern would be that the exchange rate could torpedo the thing right out of the box if it changed drastically, much like what happened with the original Capri in the 70s and other imported brands.
I like it quite a bit. What happened to that 5 door "Evoke pictured here awhile back? Was this not what was supposed to be built at Lordstown in 08. It seemed very similar in looks to the Astra pictured, but with 5 doors. It was beautiful.
And true: it is the preceived quality of the engineering. Unlike our "car guys" here in the US, they seem not to think that the public is too stupid to appreciate competent ride and handling. And good they're improving @ Opel as I like the cars.
I DON'T like that GM seems to be turning Saturn less into the next Oldsmobile but into the OLD Geo brand : 1 from here one from there all sold under one name........ not a way to build a brand identity. Okay. So let Pontiac have the clones...:D

[gkl]

I say it's a pretty good replacement for the Ion, and it's within fractions of an inch the same size. I see no problem having this beneath the Aura...guess what? That's the way the Astra and Vectra are in Europe and nobody seems to mind. We don't need 15 different sized Saturns to fit us as our waistlines grow. Heck, the idea of Saturn importing the Astra makes me want to lose more weight, not only to fit better and be healhier, but because if I weigh less, the car can go faster and corner better.:D Bring it, Saturn.

Assuming you don't need a trunk, your argument is perfectly valid. Have you taken a close look at the Vibe/Matrix? The Astra's rear storage (I won't call it a trunk) looks even a bit smaller.

I have no problems with Saturn importing the Astra. But there is a gap between the Astra and the Aura.

How does the Astra interior room compare to a Matrix? The 06 Matrix/Corolla feel cramped to me, the Ion doesn't.

[Uzzy]

I DON'T like that GM seems to be turning Saturn less into the next Oldsmobile but into the OLD Geo brand : 1 from here one from there all sold under one name........ not a way to build a brand identity. Okay. So let Pontiac have the clones...:D
Saturn is SO becomeing the next Oldsmobile, and getting away from the old GEO brand. Saturn was pretty much the GEO replacement. The original SC and the GEO Storm look a lot alike. GEO was the cheap, entry level brand below Chevy, for GM. Saturn WAS the cheap entry level brand below Chevy, but the doors didn't dent. Now you can get the VUE dressed up with a chrome package, the Relay starts with a base price above the Uplander (and I've heard the SV6 does too, but I'm not sure). Olds used to be all dressed up with chrome, and was the test bed for new technologies for GM. And who is getting the first GM Hybrid? (The Silverado doesn't count) Saturn is quickly filling the strangely shaped hole left by Oldsmobile, and it has successfully carried on from GEO, without suffering the same pathetic fate, at least not yet. :ugh:

[saturn_69]

Assuming you don't need a trunk, your argument is perfectly valid. Have you taken a close look at the Vibe/Matrix? The Astra's rear storage (I won't call it a trunk) looks even a bit smaller.

I have no problems with Saturn importing the Astra. But there is a gap between the Astra and the Aura.

How does the Astra interior room compare to a Matrix? The 06 Matrix/Corolla feel cramped to me, the Ion doesn't.
The dimensions I gave were for the hatchback, not the sedan or 5 door. The Astra wouldn't feel cramped since most of it's interior dimensions are the same as the Ion Quadcoupe. The Astra does compare dimensionally with the Mazda 3 - the 5dr Astra and Mazda 3 5dr are practically the same size, and they don't seem to have any trouble selling as many of those that they can make. The Corolla is about the same as the Ion, except it has more headroom and rear seat legroom; the Matrix is wider, taller, has more headroom, rearseat legroom and a wider track than the Ion. The Astra is bigger than the S-series and we've all owned at least one of those and raved about it, some of us still do. The 91-96 SC were smaller inside than a Geo Metro and no one complained; the SL's are smaller inside than any Cavalier; the Astra is palatial compared to the S-series. I'm just suggesting we don't shoot it down for being too small when all we have to judge it are photos and hunches that it's the same size as something in a different niche. Let's wait and see.

[haypops]

I think that this can't possibly happen. Labor costs are too high in Germany for GM to make a profit selling a small car here. Add to this the cost of shipping it. What will be imported from Germany, however, are those neat smaller-than-ours mini vans or MPV. The sales volume for these should apporximate the volume of rebadged skys going to Europe. The ship needs equal amount of cargo (vehicles) going each way to keep the cost of shipping reasonable. Perhaps this will fill the void sizewise between Astra and Aura that one of the posters mentioned.

Probably the ION replacement will be built in North America on the same platform and styling as the NEXT Astra.

[saturn_69]

I think that this can't possibly happen. Labor costs are too high in Germany for GM to make a profit selling a small car here. Add to this the cost of shipping it. What will be imported from Germany, however, are those neat smaller-than-ours mini vans or MPV. The sales volume for these should apporximate the volume of rebadged skys going to Europe. The ship needs equal amount of cargo (vehicles) going each way to keep the cost of shipping reasonable. Perhaps this will fill the void sizewise between Astra and Aura that one of the posters mentioned.

Probably the ION replacement will be built in North America on the same platform and styling as the NEXT Astra.

Agreed. Although, we could get 1 or 2 years of the current Astra as a stop-gap measure. Let's not forget, they are also imported into Mexico in 2007, and do we not have the NAFTA? Couldn't they ship them from England, Brussels or Germany to Mexico, then ship them from Mexico to the U.S. without paying import duties?

P.S. Why do we need something sizewise between the Astra and Aura? You've got your compact car, then your midsize car. Nuff said. You don't need a compamidi sized car halfway in between, you'll just confuse people in the showroom. Honda has the Civic and the Accord. Nothing in between. Yes, they have the Fit coming this summer, but Chevy has the Aveo subcompact to compete with that. Remember, the days of every GM brand carrying the same cars and competing against each other and other companies are over. Not every division needs one of everything.

[Uzzy]

Couldn't they ship them from England, Brussels or Germany to Mexico, then ship them from Mexico to the U.S. without paying import duties?
Very tricky Senior ;)

[saturn_69]

Very tricky Senior ;)
I'm just hoping that'll work. hehehehe Probably not though. Darnit, I'll go gray-market if I have to.:D J/K! I hope there aren't any customs officials here....

[EnglishSL2]

Not sure exactly what kind of car the Asra is. Im sure if I can find some infor on the kind of car, I might be better able to five my feedback. I will do some digging and if anyone has some info on this car, let me know. Thanks!

Have a look here: ;)

http://www.vauxhall.co.uk/vx/carsandvans/brandcarhub.do?method=loadBrandHubCarPage&vehicleType=C&scope=S&brandName=astra

[EnglishSL2]

Sorry, I don't like hatchbacks.

Show me a coupe version and then I'd consider it.

They do a Coupe-Cabriolet with a folding metal roof.....

http://www.vauxhall.co.uk/vx/carsandvans/brandcarhub.do?method=loadBrandHubCarPage&vehicleType=C&scope=S&brandName=astratwintop

[Uzzy]

I'm just hoping that'll work. hehehehe Probably not though. Darnit, I'll go gray-market if I have to.:D J/K! I hope there aren't any customs officials here....
No, it probably won't work. It makes too much sense, and when it comes to border issues the sensible way is never the way it goes (I live in a border city. Border crossing is issue #1 around here right now. Especially for me, I cross at least 4x a week.) But anyway I'm telling on you :x Maybe it'll take the heat off me for stooling on somebody else;)
But seriously, did you mention somthing about a sedan version of the Astra? I'm not big on hatch-backs in general, and I won't be driving a small car once I'm through with my current '02 SC1, but I'd be interested in seeing the sedan pics if there any. :yes:

[Cap138]

I'll take mine with the 200hp 2.0 Turbo Ecotec and a six-speed manual please.

[saturn_69]

No, it probably won't work. It makes too much sense, and when it comes to border issues the sensible way is never the way it goes (I live in a border city. Border crossing is issue #1 around here right now. Especially for me, I cross at least 4x a week.) But anyway I'm telling on you :x Maybe it'll take the heat off me for stooling on somebody else;)
But seriously, did you mention somthing about a sedan version of the Astra? I'm not big on hatch-backs in general, and I won't be driving a small car once I'm through with my current '02 SC1, but I'd be interested in seeing the sedan pics if there any. :yes:
Well, they made a sedan on the last version, but I don't think they do now. I think it's the 5dr, 3dr and 2dr TwinTop. Sorry. That's not to say they won't make a sedan on the next version though.;)

http://www.starcar.co.yu/images/v_astra3.jpg

[Uzzy]

They do a Coupe-Cabriolet with a folding metal roof.....

http://www.vauxhall.co.uk/vx/carsandvans/brandcarhub.do?method=loadBrandHubCarPage&vehicleType=C&scope=S&brandName=astratwintop
Well now, that's much better. It looks a lot like the AURA tho. Maybe the pictures make it look larger than it is. Well looking at that one, it seems to fit right in with Saturn's new corperate face, which looks a lot like the Opel/Vauxhall corperate face, which makes re-badgeing all that much easier. And to cash-strapped auto execs, that's a good thing. Now we just need to figure-out the Logistics. Or we could leave it to those execs.

[saturn_69]

I'll take mine with the 200hp 2.0 Turbo Ecotec and a six-speed manual please.Wow...can I post a little more about this subject?


http://www.germancarfans.com/news/2050715.001/2050715.001.1M.jpgHere ya go, a few little facts.... (http://www.worldcarfans.com/news.cfm?newsid=2050715.001/country/gcf)

[rossao1]

I vote no, And I am way in the minority. my how times have changed, :no:
I wish that I could get excited about an imported Saturn. As much as the imports are "reported" to be better, I don't think that I will stray too far from the "Made in America" lable. My '99 Mercury Villager was made in Ohio and was also sold as a Nissan quest. So, I can't too righteous about hating "foriegn cars".

But I maintain that I am a "Made in america" guy. I could go buy an Accord or a Civic easier, than buying a car "made overthere". :rolleyes: I would be at least employing my fellow Ohioians. I hope and pray that the 3 door or 5 door is an option that comes our way. Make it different, and make it in Tennesee. Exporting Saturns as Opels does not offend me. Go for it. It employees US citizens.

And yet I know that resistance is futile. Opel and Saturn are now married with children. General Motors only needs to change the logos and name on the Saturn/Opel brand to become the GMC car company. While they are at it lets fold in the buick or the pontiac car companies too. I bet it happens when GM re-reorg's under bankruptsy protection. It all seems too possible to me.

I am heartbroken. GM has sold Saturn's soul.

[haypops]

Agreed. Although, we could get 1 or 2 years of the current Astra as a stop-gap measure. Let's not forget, they are also imported into Mexico in 2007, and do we not have the NAFTA? Couldn't they ship them from England, Brussels or Germany to Mexico, then ship them from Mexico to the U.S. without paying import duties?
.

There are no import duties on imported cars just a 25% duty on imported trucks. I think that the astra sold in Mexico may be made there or in Brazil, probably not Europe, but I am not sure.

[gkl]

The dimensions I gave were for the hatchback, not the sedan or 5 door. The Astra wouldn't feel cramped since most of it's interior dimensions are the same as the Ion Quadcoupe. The Astra does compare dimensionally with the Mazda 3 - the 5dr Astra and Mazda 3 5dr are practically the same size, and they don't seem to have any trouble selling as many of those that they can make. The Corolla is about the same as the Ion, except it has more headroom and rear seat legroom; the Matrix is wider, taller, has more headroom, rearseat legroom and a wider track than the Ion. The Astra is bigger than the S-series and we've all owned at least one of those and raved about it, some of us still do. The 91-96 SC were smaller inside than a Geo Metro and no one complained; the SL's are smaller inside than any Cavalier; the Astra is palatial compared to the S-series. I'm just suggesting we don't shoot it down for being too small when all we have to judge it are photos and hunches that it's the same size as something in a different niche. Let's wait and see.

I agree, Mazda 3, Matrix and Vibe seem to sell. Not my style, but others are free to buy'em.

I've driven SLs for many years. Interior-wise, IMO, they're pretty similar to the Ion except for more front leg room, front seat travel and trunk space in the Ion. The SL is 9-10 inches longer than the Astra - I suspect most of that must be in the SL's trunk. Come to think of it, I've driven quite a few Cavalier/Sunfires and never noticed a lot more space than my SL.

I did a hands-on comparison of 05/06 Corolla/Ion. Ion is fine for me. But even with the Corolla seat all the way back, the steering wheel was at my chest and my head was practically touching the roof. I couldn't believe how much it's shrunk - we have an older Corolla in addition to our Saturn, and it's fine, similar interior space to the SL/Ion, maybe even a bit more rear seat room.

If Astra has as much interior space as an Ion or SL, that's good, but none of those are what I'd call palatial.

[spencerb]

If the the US does not have the capability of manufacturing the Astra/ION, then it's not taking jobs away from Americans. Even though it's made overseas, it's by an American company. I suspect that the importing is a stop-gap measure until production can be worked out stateside.

Does anyone have any theories about which model years we are talking about? Will we see a 2008 Saturn Astra? Or maybe even a 2007? Current rumors suggest that the ION line in Spring Hill will run through the end of calendar year 2006, which means we will have some 2007 IONs. Maybe we'll have an early 2008 Saturn Astra. I hope that is the case. I want to see this car here as soon as possible!

Where is the Astra in its product cycle? Isn't it scheduled for an update for 2009?

[cdp326]

Hatchbacks are almost always smaller than sedans of the same model. The Ford Focus is under 170" long in hatchback form but above 175" as a sedan.

[Citation84]

Saturn is SO becomeing the next Oldsmobile, and getting away from the old GEO brand. Saturn was pretty much the GEO replacement. The original SC and the GEO Storm look a lot alike. GEO was the cheap, entry level brand below Chevy, for GM. Saturn WAS the cheap entry level brand below Chevy, but the doors didn't dent. Now you can get the VUE dressed up with a chrome package, the Relay starts with a base price above the Uplander (and I've heard the SV6 does too, but I'm not sure). Olds used to be all dressed up with chrome, and was the test bed for new technologies for GM. And who is getting the first GM Hybrid? (The Silverado doesn't count) Saturn is quickly filling the strangely shaped hole left by Oldsmobile, and it has successfully carried on from GEO, without suffering the same pathetic fate, at least not yet. :ugh:
No, GEO had nothing to do with Saturn in the corporate planning. Geo was to be a specifically foreign cars based brand. None of those cars were built by GM [except the collaborative Prizm with Toyota] but rebadges of Suzuki and Isuzu products.The problem was that no one bought charade of GEO being a GM division or that it even mattered in the hierarchy. It was a sub brand FOR Chevrolet, with some of the badges even showing a little bow tie in the center. GEO was something Japanese for Chevy to sell since they couldn't or wouldn't design a decent small car for themselves. The business model was QUITE different from Saturn.
The hope was that people would go on to Olds FROM Saturn. Olds even studied the way Saturn did business in the early years.
The SC looks like the Storm and the 95-up Cavalier 2 door. They have the same elements, but the SL is a dead ringer for the Cutlass Supreme GM10 with the wrap around rear window and general styling

[HJ92126]

The Opel web site sure makes this look like a really nice car. One can only hope that the bean counters at GM dont "dumb up" this car too much. From a business viewpoint GM should bring this in, then if it takes off maybe build them here later. The only bad part is that this goes aginst the phillosophy of Saturn in the first place. GM will win some fans and loose some.

[cdp326]

1st gen SC/SC2:
http://auto.consumerguide.com/images/autoreview/400x266/1991-96-Saturn-Coupe-92130011990108.JPG

1985 Buick Wildcat concept:
http://www.carstyling.ru/resources/concept/85buick_wildcat.jpg
http://buicks.net/years/open/85concept.jpg

I've thought for some time now that there is a strong resemblance between these cars' styling. :yes:

[John10]

At this point I have to say I don't care. I have no objection to them doing it especially if it is the only way Saturn keeps a small car in its line-up. At the same time I will also say I won't buy one just because it wears a Saturn label. The car needs to be reliable, meet my driving needs and most importantly be priced right for me to buy one. I'll judge that only after I know more.

[Cap138]

Wow...can I post a little more about this subject?


http://www.germancarfans.com/news/2050715.001/2050715.001.1M.jpgHere ya go, a few little facts.... (http://www.worldcarfans.com/news.cfm?newsid=2050715.001/country/gcf)

I'll take that one too :D

They've been teasing us with the possibility of the Astra as a Saturn for three years now!
I wish we had a concrete answer if this is going to happen or not.
And I don't want to wait another three years :(

[alohadee]

http://www.motorhuis.nl/images/visual.php5?id=1235

This Convertible roadster is nice...
http://www.motorhuis.nl/personenautos/opel/nieuws/2490/

:yes:

[CarNut]

I wouldn't buy one for the same reason I didn't buy a Catera. I knew they'd follow in Merkur's footsteps. They were great to drive but the resale value and long term viablity are horrible. Ebay has lots of them very cheap with bad engines.

Oh, and Astra is too close to Astre which was a Pontiac version of the Vega.

[JDRedline]

Here's some specs comparing the Astra with the Ion QC:

Length - QC:185 / Astra: 169 (BTW, that's only 8 inches front and rear difference, which is nothing)
Wheelbase - QC: 103 / Astra: 102
Width - QC:67.9 / Astra: 68
Height - QC: 56 / Astra: 56
Track f/r QC:58.8/58.4 / Astra: 58/57.6

Interior:

Legroom f/r QC:42/32 / Astra:42/33.7
Headroom f/r QC: 38.9/36.5 / Astra: 37.8/37
Shoulder room f/r QC:54/51 / Astra: 52/43

Seems pretty darn close to me. ....

Saturn_69, you forgot one important detail: Europe uses the metric system.

So the QC measurements are in inches and the Astra's are in centimeters.:D

[JDRedline]

Here's some specs comparing the Astra with the Ion QC:

Length - QC:185 / Astra: 169 (BTW, that's only 8 inches front and rear difference, which is nothing)
....


But seriously, check your numbers: Only 8 inches difference?

I'm seeing over a foot's difference.

[haypops]

Oh, and Astra is too close to Astre which was a Pontiac version of the Vega.

And Astro (long lived/dependable Chevy mini van) is just as close to Astra as is Astre!!

I have just joined in on the most silly post ever.

[CarNut]

And Astro (long lived/dependable Chevy mini van) is just as close to Astra as is Astre!!.
How could I forget that one??? Now, its definitely too similar to other GM names. How about the NARO (Not Another Rebadged Opel).

[chris stewart]

personally the real issue should be plastic or steel. i don't know about you guys but the car company is different mostly because of the thermoplastic -- u no -- no rust, easy to replace and a reliable car. am i wrong.?!!!!!!!!:

[sincitysl2]

I am not a huge hatchback fan, but it's not completely ugly. It would be nice if they brought the design to the States and put some of the thousands of out of work auto workers back to works instead of fueling the economies of foriegn countries.

[wolfman]

Wow...can I post a little more about this subject?


http://www.germancarfans.com/news/2050715.001/2050715.001.1M.jpgHere ya go, a few little facts.... (http://www.worldcarfans.com/news.cfm?newsid=2050715.001/country/gcf)

Thanks for that...TEASE. When can I get one here in the US?

[redkees@msn.com]

Yes-if it allows Saturn to have a good attractive affordable small car in its
lineup. That 240hp engine sounds unbelievable!

[L100]

Heck Yeah, but build it at Spring Hill. I want the Diesel version.

I bet GM will have to rehire the people they just laid off because that car will sell! What styling!!

I'm getting my deposit ready.

[haypops]

How could I forget that one??? Now, its definitely too similar to other GM names. How about the NARO (Not Another Rebadged Opel).

Naro is too close to Nero the sports jacket from India with the high collar.

[Uzzy]

No, GEO had nothing to do with Saturn in the corporate planning. Geo was to be a specifically foreign cars based brand. None of those cars were built by GM [except the collaborative Prizm with Toyota] but rebadges of Suzuki and Isuzu products.The problem was that no one bought charade of GEO being a GM division or that it even mattered in the hierarchy. It was a sub brand FOR Chevrolet, with some of the badges even showing a little bow tie in the center. GEO was something Japanese for Chevy to sell since they couldn't or wouldn't design a decent small car for themselves. The business model was QUITE different from Saturn.
The hope was that people would go on to Olds FROM Saturn. Olds even studied the way Saturn did business in the early years.
The SC looks like the Storm and the 95-up Cavalier 2 door. They have the same elements, but the SL is a dead ringer for the Cutlass Supreme GM10 with the wrap around rear window and general styling

Well now they just gave up on it and stuck full-size Bow-Ties on Daewoos now. I don't know if you've got 'em in the States, but we have 3 full-fledged Daewoos wearing Bow-Ties here in Canada. I don't see much of the Storm or SC in the Cavalier, but yes the SL is a dead ringer for the old Cutlass. There is even a used car buyer's guide I was checking out and in the SL review it even mentioned that resemblance specifically. I was a kid when GEO disappeard, but everytime I see one of those damn things that stupid song goes through my head "Getting to know youuu, getting to know all about yooouuuu!"
Dammit, it's back :x

[KrgION03]

I've seen the latest Astra in person...I think it's great. I say go for it.

[PontiacLvr]

Yeah ...this is what i think it would look like in black!!

One hot rocket

[Uzzy]

Yeah ...this is what i think it would look like in black!!

One hot rocket
OK, it looks exactly like a mini-AURA. Look at the crease in the center of the hood, the side mirrors. The headlights are almost identical, except the ones on the AURA are a little bit taller with a larger turn signal.
http://www.saturnfans.com/photos/data/500/thumbs/Astra_AURA.JPG (http://www.saturnfans.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=26445)

[VTHokie00SL2]

Aside from the fact that GM has turned its "import fighter" division into a brand of imports and the fact that they've eliminated the polymer body panels, my main problem is that it only comes as a hatchback. It looks nice enough for those who want a hatch, but plenty of folks want a normal sedan, or maybe a conventional coupe or even a wagon!

[spencerb]

I seriously doubt they would only bring over a 2-dr hatch. There would still be a gap in their lineup. The Saturn Astra would fill a niche such as the Celica did for Toyota, but they still needed the Corolla.

I'm surprised by the positive reaction here. I like the car and hope that when Saturn reads this thread they take us very seriously.

[Citation84]

Well now they just gave up on it and stuck full-size Bow-Ties on Daewoos now. I don't know if you've got 'em in the States, but we have 3 full-fledged Daewoos wearing Bow-Ties here in Canada. I don't see much of the Storm or SC in the Cavalier, but yes the SL is a dead ringer for the old Cutlass. There is even a used car buyer's guide I was checking out and in the SL review it even mentioned that resemblance specifically. I was a kid when GEO disappeard, but everytime I see one of those damn things that stupid song goes through my head "Getting to know youuu, getting to know all about yooouuuu!"
Dammit, it's back :x
Ughhh. I hated those ads.:eek:The cars were interesting and the Metro and Storm were popular, but those ads... You think the same agency does the Saturn ads? They're equally wretched.
I have heard about the Daewoo rebadging. How long is it going to be before Saturn will be selling something similar? Saturn Optra..... Saturn Forenza.{Whats the other DaeChevy sold there? I can't remember the name.} And ironically Chevrolet is building it's name in Europe with Daewoo product.
We're living in an alternative universe.:dizzy:
Should have clarified re; the reference to GEO.It just seems they've gutted Saturn and now it will simply be a collection of vehicles made by others in a "portfolio" to be sold under one banner.Similar to GEO. Not a successful business model IMHO. However a product sold ONLY by Saturn even built by GM Europe or Brazil would beat going the "Relay" route, or taking a page from the Olds Cutlass school of "brand management".

[Citation84]

I seriously doubt they would only bring over a 2-dr hatch. There would still be a gap in their lineup. The Saturn Astra would fill a niche such as the Celica did for Toyota, but they still needed the Corolla.

I'm surprised by the positive reaction here. I like the car and hope that when Saturn reads this thread they take us very seriously.
I was too. Images of ragged bedraggled Saturn Fans marching on Spring Hill with torches had crossed my mind.
Personally an Astra that could run E85 would pull me in. And the size is right. Love the ION , but it seems like such a boat.

[saturn_69]

But seriously, check your numbers: Only 8 inches difference?

I'm seeing over a foot's difference.
Uh, 16 inches to be exact....but since the wheelbase is the same as the Ion, the length must come from front and rear overhangs, evenly. Hence, an 8 inch difference on both the front and rear of the car; 16 inches total. My bad, I should have explained that better.

[thatjerryguy]

Why not, though I'd prefer Saturn built their Astra here at Spring Hill. Still a possibility. But, while GM is an American-based corporation, it's operations are world-wide. Therefore, there's no reason why GM can't pull from the best and brightest of those global assets to provide its American customers – and Saturn – with the best cars available.

BTW, if the ION replacement is to be called "Astra", what becomes of the "Evoke" name Saturn supposedly registered a while back? I'm going to go out on a limb and predict it shows up on a coupe version of the Aura with a folding hardtop.

:us:

[unkle bik]

So...somebody fill me in.
Saturn plans on importing the Astra (2008?), THEN manufacturing the same car stateside (ie:Spring Hill) when/if it takes off:?:

[saturn_69]

Oh, and Astra is too close to Astre which was a Pontiac version of the Vega.
Wasn't the Vega/Astre related to the Opel Manta of the early 70's? Also, let's not forget the Chevette (Opel Kadett) and the Pontiac LeMans of the late 80's-early 90's (also an Opel Kadett). Not to mention the Opel GT, the design of which was used to shape the late 70's Corvette.

[Uzzy]

Ughhh. I hated those ads.:eek:The cars were interesting and the Metro and Storm were popular, but those ads... You think the same agency does the Saturn ads? They're equally wretched.
I have heard about the Daewoo rebadging. How long is it going to be before Saturn will be selling something similar? Saturn Optra..... Saturn Forenza.{Whats the other DaeChevy sold there? I can't remember the name.} And ironically Chevrolet is building it's name in Europe with Daewoo product.
We're living in an alternative universe.:dizzy:
Should have clarified re; the reference to GEO.It just seems they've gutted Saturn and now it will simply be a collection of vehicles made by others in a "portfolio" to be sold under one banner.Similar to GEO. Not a successful business model IMHO. However a product sold ONLY by Saturn even built by GM Europe or Brazil would beat going the "Relay" route, or taking a page from the Olds Cutlass school of "brand management".
My friend's wife LOVED her stupid GEO she calls jellybean. :no: It had a Z12 sticker on it that's kinda funny. It finally died after several accidents and what not. Anyway Chevy re-badges 4 Daewoos currently in Canada. The terrible looking Aveo (aka Pontiac Wave, and Suzuki Swift?) The Optra (sedan and wagon), the differently styled Optra5 5-door hatch (that one isn't too bad looking I'm a little ashamed to say :xeye: ) and the previous Impala rip-off Chevy Epica. Small cars are King here in the Great White North. Why do you think Pontiac dealers FREAKED :eek: when there was no Sunfire replacement? Hence the Pontiac Pursuit mentioned in the article Charlie referenced at the beginning of this thread.

[saturn_69]

Aside from the fact that GM has turned its "import fighter" division into a brand of imports and the fact that they've eliminated the polymer body panels, my main problem is that it only comes as a hatchback. It looks nice enough for those who want a hatch, but plenty of folks want a normal sedan, or maybe a conventional coupe or even a wagon!
If you can't beat 'em, import 'em. Or at least design them.

[Uzzy]

Ughhh. I hated those ads.:eek:The cars were interesting and the Metro and Storm were popular, but those ads... You think the same agency does the Saturn ads? They're equally wretched.
I have heard about the Daewoo rebadging. How long is it going to be before Saturn will be selling something similar? Saturn Optra..... Saturn Forenza.{Whats the other DaeChevy sold there? I can't remember the name.} And ironically Chevrolet is building it's name in Europe with Daewoo product.
We're living in an alternative universe.:dizzy:
Should have clarified re; the reference to GEO.It just seems they've gutted Saturn and now it will simply be a collection of vehicles made by others in a "portfolio" to be sold under one banner.Similar to GEO. Not a successful business model IMHO. However a product sold ONLY by Saturn even built by GM Europe or Brazil would beat going the "Relay" route, or taking a page from the Olds Cutlass school of "brand management".
My friend's wife LOVED her stupid GEO she calls jellybean. :no: It had a Z12 sticker on it that's kinda funny. :D It finally died after several accidents and what not. Anyway Chevy re-badges 4 Daewoos currently in Canada. The terrible looking Aveo (aka Pontiac Wave, and Suzuki Swift?) The Optra (sedan and wagon), the differently styled Optra5 5-door hatch (that one isn't too bad looking I'm a little ashamed to say :xeye: ) and the previous Impala rip-off Chevy Epica. Small cars are King here in the Great White North. Why do you think Pontiac dealers FREAKED :eek: when there was no Sunfire replacement? Hence the Pontiac Pursuit mentioned in the article Charlie referenced at the beginning of this thread.

[saturn_69]

I seriously doubt they would only bring over a 2-dr hatch. There would still be a gap in their lineup. The Saturn Astra would fill a niche such as the Celica did for Toyota, but they still needed the Corolla.

I'm surprised by the positive reaction here. I like the car and hope that when Saturn reads this thread they take us very seriously.
The Astra line includes the 3dr, the 5dr, a wagon and a TwinTop coupe.

http://www.wheels24.co.za/Images/Photos/20040519081648Astra_estate_2.jpg
http://www.carhire.ie/centrepoint/images/astra5dr.jpg
http://web.opel.cz/tz/astra-cabrio-fr2.jpg

[saturn_69]

So...somebody fill me in.
Saturn plans on importing the Astra (2008?), THEN manufacturing the same car stateside (ie:Spring Hill) when/if it takes off:?:My prediction is that Saturn will import the Astra for one year, 2007. When Springhill closes down for retooling, which I believe is until 2008 (?), I think when they open up they will be building the next generation Astra (2008) there to sell here and possibly exporting it to Mexico.

[Spanky]

Opel Astra would become the smallest Saturn ever. Only 169 inches long. 3dr/5dr, just a bit shorter than the Matrix/Vibe so it will compete directly with them and the Subaru Impreza/Saab 9-3x. And the Optra hatch.

It may be good for small/young/single people on a budget, but it is no Ion replacement. With no Ion, there will be a pretty large gap between Astra and Aura.

It doesn't sound that small. It HAS to have a larger interior that the orignial SC coupe. That thing is for all practical purposes a two seater. Personally, I would love to see the Astra come here as a hatch back. I think my SC2 would be perfect if it had a hatch. They are just so much more convenient to load and unload. I can't understand why so many Americans are opposed to hatchbacks. :dizzy: They can be styled to look like coupes, but you can actually fit things in them. What a concept! I don't see a big gap between the Aura and Astra either. Even if it is smaller, an Astra with a hatch would be much more suited to young families than an Ion sedan.

[gkl]

It doesn't sound that small. It HAS to have a larger interior that the orignial SC coupe. That thing is for all practical purposes a two seater. Personally, I would love to see the Astra come here as a hatch back. I think my SC2 would be perfect if it had a hatch. They are just so much more convenient to load and unload. I can't understand why so many Americans are opposed to hatchbacks. :dizzy: They can be styled to look like coupes, but you can actually fit things in them. What a concept! I don't see a big gap between the Aura and Astra either. Even if it is smaller, an Astra with a hatch would be much more suited to young families than an Ion sedan.

See Saturn_69's posts above for interior dimensions - the Astra hatch interior is similar to the Ion and SL - it likely has more room in the back than the SC. The extra 16 inches they chopped off the Astra is what should have been a cargo area. If you look at the pictures you can see the rear seat positioned right at the back of the Astra. That's my main beef - hatches with token cargo area. I have absolutely nothing against wagons, i.e. a hatch with serious cargo area. If there were such thing as an Ion wagon, I'd have one.

When the family and I were young, we had a hatch with just enough room in the back for 3 bags of groceries, or a stroller, but not both. What a PITA. We got a sedan asap.

YMMV, but you won't catch me in a hatch where the rear passengers are sitting in the crumple zone, practically over the gas tank.
Anyone remember the Ford Pinto? :hothead:

[saturn_69]

See Saturn_69's posts above for interior dimensions - the Astra hatch interior is similar to the Ion and SL - it likely has more room in the back than the SC. The extra 16 inches they chopped off the Astra is what should have been a cargo area. If you look at the pictures you can see the rear seat positioned right at the back of the Astra. That's my main beef - hatches with token cargo area. I have absolutely nothing against wagons, i.e. a hatch with serious cargo area. If there were such thing as an Ion wagon, I'd have one.

When the family and I were young, we had a hatch with just enough room in the back for 3 bags of groceries, or a stroller, but not both. What a PITA. We got a sedan asap.

YMMV, but you won't catch me in a hatch where the rear passengers are sitting in the crumple zone, practically over the gas tank.
Anyone remember the Ford Pinto? :hothead:The rear seats fold down if you need the cargo room, and as for the rear passengers sitting over the gas tank....go look under any FWD car on the market. Bingo. The rear seat is over the gas tank. On 90% of them.

What kind of hatchback did you have that was either 3 bags of groceries or a stroller but not both? My 2nd car was a hatchback and I could fit 6 bags of groceries AND a stroller in it. Okay, I didn't have a stroller then, but I took my Mom to the store and we brought home 6 grocery bags - the paper kind, not the little new age mesh or plastic ones, the kind made out of trees - and 2 20# bags of dogfood. It was a '78 Pontiac Sunbird hatchback, and my brother was in the back seat so no, I didn't cheat and fold the seat down (remember when they didn't split 50/50?).

Oh, btw. As far as crumple zones go, that little moving panel next to you...you know...the door. Yeah. That's a crumple zone and it's only about 5 or 6 inches thick.

[gkl]

The rear seats fold down if you need the cargo room, and as for the rear passengers sitting over the gas tank....go look under any FWD car on the market. Bingo. The rear seat is over the gas tank. On 90% of them.

What kind of hatchback did you have that was either 3 bags of groceries or a stroller but not both? My 2nd car was a hatchback and I could fit 6 bags of groceries AND a stroller in it. Okay, I didn't have a stroller then, but I took my Mom to the store and we brought home 6 grocery bags - the paper kind, not the little new age mesh or plastic ones, the kind made out of trees - and 2 20# bags of dogfood. It was a '78 Pontiac Sunbird hatchback, and my brother was in the back seat so no, I didn't cheat and fold the seat down (remember when they didn't split 50/50?).

Oh, btw. As far as crumple zones go, that little moving panel next to you...you know...the door. Yeah. That's a crumple zone and it's only about 5 or 6 inches thick.

OK, so when I fold the rear seats down, what do I do with the child seats, not to mention the kids in them? The other poster specifically said Astra was better than Ion for young families. I respectfully disagree.

FWIW, the hatch we had was an 80ish Mazda. Can't remember whether the rear seats split, but there wasn't much room back there anyway.

You have a point about side door crumple zones. If you are hit on the side at high speed you are pretty much toast in any small car. However, I believe most high speed collisions involve rear/front impact.

Not all gas tanks are under the rear seats. But when it is under there, at least it's not in the rear crumple zone for a sedan or wagon.

I don't know what they've done if anything to avoid rear-end ignition in the Mazda 3/Vibe/Matrix/Astra, but having seen what happens to a Pinto when its rear-ended, I really don't want to find out the hard way.

Anyway, the issue here is the Astra hatch. I have no problem whatsoever with the thing if it has a decent size cargo space between the bumper and the rear seats. If it does, or if Saturn adapts the design to include one, then I'd look at it seriously.

However, just looking at those pictures of the Astra, I can see the rear seats rammed up against the hatch. Of course I'm making a judgement call here and your view may be different - but given the exterior/interior specs I can't see the Astra having much useful cargo space while carrying 4 passengers, and as we all know, seating people in a crumple zone has not been the Saturn way.

As usual, just my $0.02. YMMV.

[Ghost_In_The_Ma]

The more GM Imports, the lower the reason to have any loyalty to them. If They want to Import them Call them GEO's.

[pluto420]

the 07 ions will be on the opel platform, and totaly redesigned from the ground up and no more gauges in the middle of the dash

[iheartmysaturn]

I say build it in America and not import it.
yes yes

[Citation84]

Wasn't the Vega/Astre related to the Opel Manta of the early 70's? Also, let's not forget the Chevette (Opel Kadett) and the Pontiac LeMans of the late 80's-early 90's (also an Opel Kadett). Not to mention the Opel GT, the design of which was used to shape the late 70's Corvette.
Actually,there was nothing of the Opel in the Vega, except perhaps the manual transmission. And of course GM may have studied the Kadett for design purposes.The Manta came later than the Vega. If not by much then too close to have had any influence on Chevrolet's decision making. The design for the Vega was being laid down in late 1968.
And the Opel GT followed the styling of the Corvette which came out in 1968 featuring all the cues Opel used in it's GT, not the other way around. There was much comment at the time that the Opel GT looked so much like the Corvette but in 2/3rds scale.
The original styling was from the Mako Shark Corvette show car of the mid 60s that has pretty much been the template for all Corvettes since.

[mikec]

Actually,there was nothing of the Opel in the Vega, except perhaps the manual transmission. And of course GM may have studied the Kadett for design purposes.The Manta came later than the Vega. If not by much then too close to have had any influence on Chevrolet's decision making. The design for the Vega was being laid down in late 1968.
And the Opel GT followed the styling of the Corvette which came out in 1968 featuring all the cues Opel used in it's GT, not the other way around. There was much comment at the time that the Opel GT looked so much like the Corvette but in 2/3rds scale.
The original styling was from the Mako Shark Corvette show car of the mid 60s that has pretty much been the template for all Corvettes since.

I thought that the Chevette was based on a South American GM auto design and that the late 80's early 90's Pontiac Lemans was a Daewoo vehicle. Also, wasn't the Saturn L series basically a rebadged Opel?

As for the Astra, I am all for whatever will get Saturn sales and market share up. I'm sure that rebadging Opels and selling them as Saturns will save money for GM. The 2 potential downsides, IMO, are that the price of these vehicles will be higher than their respective predecessors and you have the problem of quality when it comes to European cars.

[Citation84]

I thought that the Chevette was based on a South American GM auto design and that the late 80's early 90's Pontiac Lemans was a Daewoo vehicle. Also, wasn't the Saturn L series basically a rebadged Opel?

As for the Astra, I am all for whatever will get Saturn sales and market share up. I'm sure that rebadging Opels and selling them as Saturns will save money for GM. The 2 potential downsides, IMO, are that the price of these vehicles will be higher than their respective predecessors and you have the problem of quality when it comes to European cars.
The Chevette was what was called GM's T Car. Essentially an Opel that was built all over the world [and in South America] and even in Japan [Isuzu Gmini IIRC]. The LeMans was an Opel design built in Korea by GM/Daewoo and rebadged as a Pontiac.
GM had an interest in Daewoo for a long time before it went independent, expanded too fast and collapsed, leaving the door wide open for purchase of a majority interest in the automotive arm by a consortium of GM/Suzuki/and Korean bankers and financiers.That did not include Daewoo US which is why you see the product branded Chevrolet or Suzuki here in the US. There have been legal actions taken against GM by former Daewoo dealers wanting GM to pay them off as well, but the deal specifically excluded any interest in Daewoo US.
I have the same concerns as you do about the quality [said to be getting better, though, as reported by Saturn69] and the cost, effects of the exchange rates on base prices,costs of shipping etc.Labor and legacy costs are as great in Germany as they are here [except health but SOMEONE pays for it], I cannot see the benefit to GM unless it is a way to keep a small car in the pipeline until production capability here is possible.
Hopefully as Saturn 69 has predicted the first ones will be imported, but only for a year or so, then eventually built here. No one knows what Line 1 [ION production currently] @ Spring Hill is being re-tooled FOR. A Saturn Astra built @ Spring Hill would be the ideal outcome IMHO.

[cdp326]

Here are some specs for the Astra 1.8L from street-car.net:

Vauxhall/Opel Astra 1.8
(2004-to date)

FUEL TYPE: petrol (gasoline)
ENGINE CAPACITY: 1796cc
CYLINDERS: In-line 4
VALVES: 16
POWER: 123bhp
TORQUE: 125 lb-ft
DRIVEN WHEELS: front (FWD)
STANDARD TRANSMISSION: 5-speed manual
OPTIONAL TRANSMISSION: 4-speed automatic
BODY STYLES: 3/5-door hatchback, estate (wagon)
SEATING CAPACITY: 5

MAXIMUM SPEED: 123mph
0-60: 10.1 seconds
AVERAGE FUEL ECONOMY: 36mpg

LENGTH: hatchback: 4249mm [167.3 in]
estate: 4515mm [177.8 in]
WIDTH: 1753mm [69.0 in]
HEIGHT: 1467mm [57.8 in]
WHEELBASE: 2614mm [102.9 in]
KERB WEIGHT: hatchback: 1203kg [2650lbs]
estate: 1231kg [2711lbs]

CO2 EMISSIONS: 185 g/km
UK INSURANCE GROUP: 6-8
EURO NCAP CRASH TEST RATING: 5 stars
US NCAP (NHTSA) CRASH TEST RATING: not applicable


Keep in mind that we use different gallons in the US than Europe. As for length, the wagon (estate) would be about the length of a sedan if they were to do one. Keep in mind that we have different bumper standards here also, so it the length would likely change some. (For example, the Mazda 5 is about 177" in Europe, and 181" in the US.) The length of the hatchback is close to the Ford Focus hatch, both US and European models.
The Astra would also set Saturn up for the Zafira mini-minivan (think Mazda 5). The Zafira is based on the Astra.

[Uzzy]

I could see Saturn having somthing to give the Mazda5 competition. A friend of mine has a Mazda5, and just loves the thing. But he would never even consder buy anything domestic:hmpf:

[pd1601]

The Saturn brand needs competitive products that people want to buy if it is to survive. Assembly in the US is a possible option.

[marmaduke]

Anyway Chevy re-badges 4 Daewoos currently in Canada. The terrible looking Aveo (aka Pontiac Wave, and Suzuki Swift?) The Optra (sedan and wagon), the differently styled Optra5 5-door hatch (that one isn't too bad looking I'm a little ashamed to say :xeye: ) and the previous Impala rip-off Chevy Epica. Small cars are King here in the Great White North. Why do you think Pontiac dealers FREAKED :eek: when there was no Sunfire replacement? Hence the Pontiac Pursuit mentioned in the article Charlie referenced at the beginning of this thread.

IMO,

Optra is essentially a spiritual successor of daewoo nubira and probably a daewoo lanos
http://www.gmcanada.com/english/vehicles/chevrolet/optra/index.jsp

Chevy Epica is a rebadged Daewoo Leganza (remember those?)
http://www.gmcanada.com/english/vehicles/chevrolet/epica/epic_gall_ext.jsp

I will never touch daewoos even with a nine foot pole... not because they are korean but they were really cheap looking.

On the other hand, I love opel designs and wouldnt mind those.. In fact, I'd say bring opels as is... (not because of bias towards european makes .. they just look real nice) Astra is world famous and has been around in many parts of the globe. Vectra is less known...

[eRic 02sc2]

Yes. Looks good.

[marmaduke]

IMO,

Optra is essentially a spiritual successor of daewoo nubira and probably a daewoo lanos
http://www.gmcanada.com/english/vehicles/chevrolet/optra/index.jsp

Chevy Epica is a rebadged Daewoo Leganza (remember those?)
http://www.gmcanada.com/english/vehicles/chevrolet/epica/epic_gall_ext.jsp


Chevy aveo is a rebadged daewoo kalos...

[Dante]

GM has had pretty mixed results as of late with rebadging import models from other global divisions. The Pontiac GTO is just a rebadged Holden/Vauxhall Monaro. I've driven one, and it's fast, but it handles like a dog, and I don't think they are very attractive.

On the other hand, I REALLY like just about EVERYTHING that Opel/Vauxhall has currently. The comparison above between the Aura and Astra in black showing how similar they are is fantastic. I am excited about the Aura, and I'd really like to see the ION replaced with something a bit more competitive. Sure, we all love the ION, but the rest of the world and market doesn't. The Astra is selling like mad in Europe for a reason. Granted, the US tends to like larger cars, but I think now it's getting to the point where most families have one larger and one smaller car. For example, we have an SL2 and a Vue. Some day the SL2 will be replaced. Hopefully at that point, I can convince the wife to drive the Vue and I can get a 240+HP Astra (or whatever they call it) with a 6spd manual -- something I can take to the track and hang with the boys in the Subaru STis. :)

I would really prefer to see it manufactured at Spring Hill, and I'd love to see it in polymer and not steel, but GM has made it 100% clear that future Saturns are not going to be polymer, even if they are made at Spring Hill. When SH shuts down for retooling in 2007 or 2008, all the polymer making gear will get tossed, I'm sure, and the next-gen Vue (Opel Antara, remember?) and next-gen ION (Opel Astra) will probably be put into production. I seriously doubt that the plants in Europe could handle making another 20 to 30 thousand vehicles or more per year to support the next-gen Saturn Vue and Ion.

Keep in mind, our dear, sweet Sky is almost identical to the Opel GT, and I don't see many people complaining about it. Almost universally, people say they prefer the Sky/GT over the dumpy-looking Pontiac Solstice.

Saturn would have a pretty sweet lineup in 2008:
Sky (based on Opel GT)
new Ion (based on Opel Astra) with various forms, 2 door hatch, 4 door hatch, wagon, and coupe/targa with fold-down hard top
Aura (new platform for GM, IIRC)
new Vue (based on Opel Antara)
new Outlook (based on a new GM platform)
and the Relay, yer dumpy ol' rebadged generic minivan that serves its purpose and fills a need and is reasonably comfortable and functional inside and out.

Sounds like a pretty good lineup to me. You could have a car for every member of the family, kids of driving age, mom & dad, and even gramma and gramps. Saturn has always complained of not having enough models to meet everyone's needs. With the direction they are going, they will, and most of them will be *very* sharp looking cars. I'm all for domestic production, let's see how that pans out.

[saturn_69]

OK, so when I fold the rear seats down, what do I do with the child seats, not to mention the kids in them? The other poster specifically said Astra was better than Ion for young families. I respectfully disagree.

FWIW, the hatch we had was an 80ish Mazda. Can't remember whether the rear seats split, but there wasn't much room back there anyway.

You have a point about side door crumple zones. If you are hit on the side at high speed you are pretty much toast in any small car. However, I believe most high speed collisions involve rear/front impact.

Not all gas tanks are under the rear seats. But when it is under there, at least it's not in the rear crumple zone for a sedan or wagon.

I don't know what they've done if anything to avoid rear-end ignition in the Mazda 3/Vibe/Matrix/Astra, but having seen what happens to a Pinto when its rear-ended, I really don't want to find out the hard way.

Anyway, the issue here is the Astra hatch. I have no problem whatsoever with the thing if it has a decent size cargo space between the bumper and the rear seats. If it does, or if Saturn adapts the design to include one, then I'd look at it seriously.

However, just looking at those pictures of the Astra, I can see the rear seats rammed up against the hatch. Of course I'm making a judgement call here and your view may be different - but given the exterior/interior specs I can't see the Astra having much useful cargo space while carrying 4 passengers, and as we all know, seating people in a crumple zone has not been the Saturn way.

As usual, just my $0.02. YMMV.
Uh, if you need the cargo room in a sedan with folding rear seats, where do you put the kids? If your'e running to Home Depot to get something you'll need the seats down to carry, why would you bring the kids? Hatchbacks and sedans with folding rear seats pose the same cargo vs. passenger dilemma, only with a hatchback, you can put taller stuff in the car and it's easier to get stuff in and out. Only in rear wheel drive cars are the gas tanks located (although only in older platforms like the Crown Vic) between the rear axle and the bumper, ala Pinto, Vega, etc., so as not to be a rolling bomb. That's 80's tech. BMW has a gas tank that stradles the rear differential, as does Mercedes, Chrysler and most any other company that makes rear drive cars. As for front wheel drive cars, the gas tank is under the rear seat, with the spare tire wells and flat trunk floos, there is no where else to put it in a FWD car. I actually can't think of any modern car that places the gas tank between the rear bumper and the rear axle assembly. If you're worried about impact ignition (which doesn't happen often), don't buy a Porsche. The gas tank is in the front, like the old Beetle, and frontal collisions happen more often than rear collisions.

[rret]

build the same car here so Americans have jobs.
then i would buy one.

[cdp326]

This may have been covered already (here or elsewhere) but would the ION production continue for a short while into the 2007 MY?

[saturn_69]

This may have been covered already (here or elsewhere) but would the ION production continue for a short while into the 2007 MY?
MY2007 begins June 15, 2006 so technically, yes. Calendar year '07, no, since the MY runs from June of '06 to April (?) of '07, which is when the plant is scheduled to close down Line 1 for 1 year (MY08) for retooling....enter the Astra...then the plant comes back online for MY09. What happens during that year to Saturn's compact cars, what will they sell? Hmmm.....I have an idea. ;)

[CarNut]

... I can't understand why so many Americans are opposed to hatchbacks. ...
Hatchbacks are noisier and less safe. Drive a car offered in both configurations it's quite noticeable. Take a look at the rear shelf in the ion. It's very robust. The fixed glass also add rigidity. A hatchback chassis will be much more flexible and have questionable side impact protection IMO. That flexibility translates into more squeaks and rattles. Plus all the noise generated by the muffler and suspension has direct path to the occupants. Americans are obsessed with the feel and refinement. That's more difficult to deliver in a hatch.

[Charlie]

This may have been covered already (here or elsewhere) but would the ION production continue for a short while into the 2007 MY?
What I'm hearing is that Saturn may do what they did with the L300: build a stockpile of 2007 IONs this fall so that when the line shuts down at the end of the year (December), retailers will have enough cars to last until the 2008 Astra arrives.

Charlie

[cdp326]

What I'm hearing is that Saturn may do what they did with the L300: build a stockpile of 2007 IONs this fall so that when the line shuts down at the end of the year, retailers will have enough cars to last until the 2008 Astra arrives.

Charlie

That's basically what I figured they'd do. :cool:

Hatchbacks are noisier and less safe. Drive a car offered in both configurations it's quite noticeable. Take a look at the rear shelf in the ion. It's very robust. The fixed glass also add rigidity. A hatchback chassis will be much more flexible and have questionable side impact protection IMO. That flexibility translates into more squeaks and rattles. Plus all the noise generated by the muffler and suspension has direct path to the occupants. Americans are obsessed with the feel and refinement. That's more difficult to deliver in a hatch.
In Europe hatchbacks/wagons rule, and sedan versions of many cars--particularly compacts and smaller--aren't popular. In Europe people expect a lot more out of their cars, which is why you can get things like automatic air conditioning on a Focus which you can't get in the US, and it's why Ford won't give us the Focus yet, because it'd be too expensive for the market. Any carmaker that would care would make sure to engineer a hatchback to be as safe and rigid as a regular car. In Europe the crash tests are stricter and it's a lot harder to get a 5 star rating (one rating serves for the whole car as opposed to almost a half-dozen ratings for the whole car in the US). More cars in Europe are getting 5 star ratings, and the Astra apparently is one of them. Hatchbacks would be noisier but I don't think they're as less safe as it would seem.

Americans mainly don't like hatchbacks because they're set hard in their ways and are remember the hatches of the 70's. :xeye:

[99SC1-R]

It would be awesome. The Astra is more or less the same "size" as the Ion so it would make a great replacement for the next gen of the car.

and they could still have the VXR version, but we'd just call it the Redline.

It is already established and all the kinks are already hammered out.

But please please please at least equip it with some sort of LSD or TC because as I've seen that it likes to smoke its inside tire on tighter corners.

Will we also get the Turbo 16 valve, 6-speed gearbox and 240 HP????:eek:

[Citation84]

I would think that a QC having no mid section door posts would be at least as "unsafe" as a hatchback. The "B" pillar is equally as important as the C and a hatch back would still have BOTH. There's nothing on the sides in a QC. That doesn't make me feel very "safe". And that's what it boils down to: conjecture and supposition, not anything to do with an actual fact. The QC does fine in side impact ratings.So would any modern hatchback, especially as the opening around the hatch would need to be reinforced to carry the body/frame strength of the -unit body.
And it was shown in court that the Pinto was no more prone statistically to fires in rear crashes than the Dodge Colt, Chevy Vega, AMC Gremlin, etc.But I am still glad that the old way of doing things is done with. I wouldn't worry about being less "safe" in a modern hatchback.
The reason people don't find them attractive today is that they sort of got the image of being "dorkmobiles". It was less refinement worries than "image" and ego problems.They just weren't "cool" to be seen in, and that stigma remains.It would be interesting to find what the age co-hort of the people thinking a hatchback would be desireable as opposed to those who would not be caught dead in one. They're no longer your father's hatchback ????
Of course no one worried about that with the 3rd generation [1982- 199??]Camaro and it's hatch.

[saturn_69]

Hatchbacks are noisier and less safe. Drive a car offered in both configurations it's quite noticeable. Take a look at the rear shelf in the ion. It's very robust. The fixed glass also add rigidity. A hatchback chassis will be much more flexible and have questionable side impact protection IMO. That flexibility translates into more squeaks and rattles. Plus all the noise generated by the muffler and suspension has direct path to the occupants. Americans are obsessed with the feel and refinement. That's more difficult to deliver in a hatch.I totally disagree. Tell that to Jaguar, the new XK is a hatchback, and they wouldn't allow a noisy, flexible Jag. Or the VW Golf, GTI, Audi A3, Porsche Cayman, Ford Focus ZX3, Toyota Prius, Scions, Saab 9-3 SportCombi, Chrysler Pacifica, and various others...and for that matter any wagon or 5 door car and most SUV's. They're all pretty much hatchbacks, just with the rear 'hatch' angle changed. And SUV's, or at least the smaller unibody ones, are rather like boxy hatchbacks. They're quiet, and they're safe, and Americans flock to them like they're going outta style, which I wish they would. I think everyone has remembered the 70's and 80's versions of hatchbacks. I realize that is your opinion, but I wonder how much of it is shaped by your previous experience with hatchbacks.

[saturn_69]

In Europe hatchbacks/wagons rule, and sedan versions of many cars--particularly compacts and smaller--aren't popular.
Americans mainly don't like hatchbacks because they're set hard in their ways and are remember the hatches of the 70's. :xeye:
Bingo.

[CarNut]

Europeans probably like hatchbacks for their shorter dimensions and easier parking. That's not generally a problem in the US.
Most SUVs are body on frame construction which results in much lower NHV without increasing stiffness so thier not a valid comparison. Ever see a typical ladder frame pickup off-road? The cab and box can easily be misaligned by an inch in extreme twisting maneuvers.
I owned a Saab 99 2 door and 900 hatch at the same time. The 900 was only a front end styling and interior upgrade from the 99. Whenever I jacked up the 900 hatch at the front jack point, the body flexed so much the door wouldn't shut. Just as stiff? I don't think so.
A simple demonstration of the problem is a long slender cardboard box. With the ends securely taped, it's quite stiff. Cut the center 95% out and suddenly it's a another story. There is no practical way to stiffen the open end to the same degree it was when taped closed. It will require a stiffening ring with enormously more material than was cut off to even come close.
Everything bends, its just a question of how much. More triangulated structures such as trusses provide much more strength and rigidity for a given amount of material than long slender shapes. As an ex-aeropace engineer I feel much more comfortable with the side impact protection of the quad coupe than I would with a hatch.
And a final note to hatchback drivers. I hope you are securing your cargo properly with straps/cargo net everytime . In a rollover or severe accident everything back there is a potential loose projectile in the passenger cabin :eek: .

[haypops]

Most SUVs are body on frame construction which results in much lower NHV without increasing stiffness so thier not a valid comparison. : .

I guess the dog stole your newspaper carnut. BOF construction among SUVs is now in the minority. That minority percentage is dcroping quickly too. The new Ford Explorer is doing poorly and there is talk of closing GM's Moraine plant where the Chevy Trailblazer and GMC Envoy are built.

There is little sense talking of body stiffness using vehicles of the past. Giant strides have been made in this area. See the ION for example.

[Citation84]

I guess the dog stole your newspaper carnut. BOF construction among SUVs is now in the minority. That minority percentage is dcroping quickly too. The new Ford Explorer is doing poorly and there is talk of closing GM's Moraine plant where the Chevy Trailblazer and GMC Envoy are built.

There is little sense talking of body stiffness using vehicles of the past. Giant strides have been made in this area. See the ION for example.
Amen.
Using a long slender cardboard box and cutting out 95% of the sides would not prove torsional superiority of a vehicle with no B pillar either. That's just silliness.And doing it long ways proves nothing as well.:eek: It proves only the torsional capabilities of cardboard. And having BOTH sides of the car wide open without any mid section support of the unibody frame seems comedic when discussing the relative "safety" of a hatchback. And since we're using old style engineering practices to assess modern vehicles, the hard tops of the 60s and 70s had no B pillar either, much the same as the QC and had dubious torsional stiffness. Using that logic I would much rather be in an Astra hatchback than a QC in a side accident.
No one is cutting out 95% of the roof of a car to build a hatchback. They don't cut and patch any longer.
And Saab is known for their robust cars AND their hatchbacks [and their aero engineers]. And their SAFETY.To extrapolate that a hatchback is not as safe and that's why people do not buy them is simply bizarre with all due respect. I would like to see the data on that.

[saturn_69]

Europeans probably like hatchbacks for their shorter dimensions and easier parking. That's not generally a problem in the US.
Most SUVs are body on frame construction which results in much lower NHV without increasing stiffness so thier not a valid comparison. Ever see a typical ladder frame pickup off-road? The cab and box can easily be misaligned by an inch in extreme twisting maneuvers.
I owned a Saab 99 2 door and 900 hatch at the same time. The 900 was only a front end styling and interior upgrade from the 99. Whenever I jacked up the 900 hatch at the front jack point, the body flexed so much the door wouldn't shut. Just as stiff? I don't think so.
A simple demonstration of the problem is a long slender cardboard box. With the ends securely taped, it's quite stiff. Cut the center 95% out and suddenly it's a another story. There is no practical way to stiffen the open end to the same degree it was when taped closed. It will require a stiffening ring with enormously more material than was cut off to even come close.
Everything bends, its just a question of how much. More triangulated structures such as trusses provide much more strength and rigidity for a given amount of material than long slender shapes. As an ex-aeropace engineer I feel much more comfortable with the side impact protection of the quad coupe than I would with a hatch.
And a final note to hatchback drivers. I hope you are securing your cargo properly with straps/cargo net everytime . In a rollover or severe accident everything back there is a potential loose projectile in the passenger cabin :eek: .Europeans like hatchbacks because they are versatile and have better gas mileage than the SUV's we love so much. You don't like hatchbacks, that's fine, just say so, but you can't compare the ones of yesterday with the ones of today. The current breed of hatchback is light years ahead of the cheapies sold here in the 70's and 80's, and they are just as safe as their sedan counterparts. It's a proven fact. European crash tests are more severe than ours (when is the last time you heard of GM doing an elk impact test? Or sideways into a utility pole?) so I feel confident that they'll hold up well. I think there are like what, 3 or 4 SUV's that use body on frame construction. Out of a field of 30 or more SUV's that's nothing.

Oh, and for the SUV owners, make sure you secure your rear mounted cargo too. Cargo straps: They aren't just for hatchbacks anymore.....

[saturn_69]

I would think that a QC having no mid section door posts would be at least as "unsafe" as a hatchback. The "B" pillar is equally as important as the C and a hatch back would still have BOTH. There's nothing on the sides in a QC. That doesn't make me feel very "safe". And that's what it boils down to: conjecture and supposition, not anything to do with an actual fact. The QC does fine in side impact ratings.So would any modern hatchback, especially as the opening around the hatch would need to be reinforced to carry the body/frame strength of the -unit body.
And it was shown in court that the Pinto was no more prone statistically to fires in rear crashes than the Dodge Colt, Chevy Vega, AMC Gremlin, etc.But I am still glad that the old way of doing things is done with. I wouldn't worry about being less "safe" in a modern hatchback.
The reason people don't find them attractive today is that they sort of got the image of being "dorkmobiles". It was less refinement worries than "image" and ego problems.They just weren't "cool" to be seen in, and that stigma remains.It would be interesting to find what the age co-hort of the people thinking a hatchback would be desireable as opposed to those who would not be caught dead in one. They're no longer your father's hatchback ????
Of course no one worried about that with the 3rd generation [1982- 199??]Camaro and it's hatch.Well said. I forgot about the Camaro. The 70's Pinto explosions were right up with there with the self-accelerating Audis of the 80's: urban car legends that refuse to die. A friend of a cousin whose sister dated a guy whose Mom's Aunt had a neighbor who was BBQ'd when her Pinto was rear-ended by a 10 speed Schwinn......yeah, okay. :dizzy: I'd rather have a hatchback than a sedan, but that's just me. It'd give me the utility when I needed it and the passenger capacity when I didn't, all in one smaller, more fuel efficient and stylish package. The box on wheels SUV craze needs to go.

[haypops]

Regarding the ION quad coupe; doesn't it have a virtual B- piller? When the doors are closed the stiffining of the doors and the latches on the floor and roof combine to form a functioning B piller.

[Citation84]

Regarding the ION quad coupe; doesn't it have a virtual B- piller? When the doors are closed the stiffining of the doors and the latches on the floor and roof combine to form a functioning B piller.
Of course it does.;) It has no problem meeting all safety requirements and neither would a modern hatchback.The safety concern is unfounded.
Additionally hatchbacks today use a cargo cover unlike the Monza 2+2s and Pintos and Hornets of the 70s.So no problem letting things flop around back there. You'd have to do that for any vehicle that had the seat folded down and was carrying cargo.
The Scion TC is a hatchback.It looks great. Like a Saturn QC IMHO.:D

[CarNut]

Well I'm sorry I bothered to offer any other viewpoint than "Europeans are more enlightened, make better choices, and have much higher standards than Americans". I'm sorry I even attempted to offer a simple engineering analogy. And there are so many ridiculous assertions in the past few threads its clear I'd be wasting even more time than I already have to offer any rebuttals. People believe what they want to believe. After all, I refuse to assume anything American is crap.

[haypops]

. After all, I refuse to assume anything American is crap.

I assume you meant that you refuse to believe enerything American is crap? Surely something American is crap? How about Michale Jackson?

[SilverION]

Well I'm sorry I bothered to offer any other viewpoint than "Europeans are more enlightened, make better choices, and have much higher standards than Americans". I'm sorry I even attempted to offer a simple engineering analogy. And there are so many ridiculous assertions in the past few threads its clear I'd be wasting even more time than I already have to offer any rebuttals. People believe what they want to believe. After all, I refuse to assume anything American is crap.

I don't think that Europeans have higher standards than Americans, but I think that cars seem to be marketed differently between Europe and America. I think that the apparent "dumbing down" of cars sold in America reflects the fact that American car companies target their marketing strategies to the largest group of customers, which forces a sort of lowest common denominator effect on the fun aspects of a car (performance, handling, etc.) European car companies are more likely to try to market a sporty fun little car to the general population, where as in America we tend to aim for the soccer-mom set because it represents a large section of the car-buying population. We have fun sporty little cars in the US too, but they're just lower priority than SUV's, as far as American car companies are concerned. I think it's just cultural.

[Citation84]

Well I'm sorry I bothered to offer any other viewpoint than "Europeans are more enlightened, make better choices, and have much higher standards than Americans". I'm sorry I even attempted to offer a simple engineering analogy. And there are so many ridiculous assertions in the past few threads its clear I'd be wasting even more time than I already have to offer any rebuttals. People believe what they want to believe. After all, I refuse to assume anything American is crap.
How do you make this leap of logic? You are ill informed about modern hatchbacks. No one is saying "everything european" is superior.
No one said anything American is crap. Where do you get this???
Don't be offended. You are comparing 70s hatch backs with modern vehicles and suggesting that a hatch back may be more "unsafe" is ridiculous to put it politely. You have NO data to back that up, you proved nothing with your cardboard box demonstration. Don't take it out on us because your opinion was found to be based on inaccurate out of date information and rank supposition.A "feeling" as it were. Not based in any sort of reality.
I doubt the relative safety was ever even considered by people in the market for a hatchback.Not even an issue. Because there is no evidence that this body style is any less safe than any other except your claim that it's so. And no one here was rude in the way they presented their opinions.
To put it plainly: Any hatchback that was produced here or offered here in the US would have to meet the same federal crash standards as any other car.And it is ironic that you would be so concerned about driving a hatchback while your own QC is without a B pillar [albeit it has a "virtual" one] itself. So using your logic it must be less safe than a standard ION sedan. I was being absurd to demonstrate your absurd thinking. It has obviously been engineered to meet all federal crash standards.As would any hatchback sold here in the US, homegrown or imported.

[Citation84]

Additionally:I did the cardboard box test. [Being the UN-PC old curmudgeon that I am I used a cigarette carton,btw]
Yes cutting 95 % of the top out will weaken the structure. But CARS ARE NOT BUILT THAT WAY.They have an A pillar a B pillar and a C pillar even in a hatchback.
When you cut 25% to one third of the top as in what would represent a hatch, and more realistically the proportion of hatch to vehicle,similar to the way a car is actually built there is very little difference in the strength of the box. Even when you cut half way down the back vertically and across, to mimic the rear end opening of a vehicle, where the hatch meets the rear frame there is little structural difference. To assume the engineers would not compensate for this is just foolish.By the time the car made it to production there would be very little if any lack of integrity. Again: this is not the 70s!!!
And if there was any slight loss of structural integrity, there certainly would not the sort to engender fear, misguided concern, and to justify spreading mis information [opinion masquerading as fact].The VW New Beetle is a hatch and one of the best small cars in crash results.
Your offense at OTHER'S opinions is insulting when you have been mistaken about SUVs being body on frame,that the group has been engaging in America bashing, assuming hatchbacks are still being built with wide open cargo areas as well as flimsy construction,and assuming there would be a tremendous effect on structural integrity of a hatchback over a sedan by cutting away 95% of the top a long slender cardboard box. And your concern over side impact protection [especially when you are driving a QC] of a hatchback is not backed up by any sort of statistical data.And none of them were as rude to you as you have been with your last post.
And some of the WORST ideas of the 20th Century came from Europe: [Naziism, collectivism, communism, etc.]so don't go there. No one said anything of the sort about Europe being so superior.Our auto execs and the decisions they make DUMB. People on this thread seem to LIKE this car and want to see it here. Period. They're not going to build a car that cannot meet all US safety standards and many times have to UPGRADE to meet ours.That they have equal or better standards is not America bashing, it may simply be fact. Get a grip.

[Old Crow]

Bring it on. I've driven European cars around Europe and I love them. The Europeans definitely have a different outlook - they have to because of small town streets. I find SUVs useless and IMHO make the roads less safe overall.

And not to offend anyone, I've driven American cars all around America and loved that too. 4/4 cars I've bought were US brands made in USA (but that's no guarantee the next will be, they must meet the competition).

I would definitely consider the 5-door Astra, built here or there. I'm a huge fan of hatch backs - always have been, always will be. Versatility and mileage are main reasons both cars in my driveway are SW2.:usa:

[haypops]

[QUOTE=Old Crow]Bring it on. I've driven European cars around Europe and I love them. The Europeans definitely have a different outlook - they have to because of small town streets. I find SUVs useless and IMHO make the roads less safe overall.
QUOTE]

I appreciate your experience. I have a similar but opposite experience. I spent a week in College Station Texas and i can see how everyone would be perfectly happy driving around in a full size pick-em-up or larger there.

[Old Crow]

Maybe you need one to drive around college station because all those Texas folk have em to haul steers around. I wouldn't want to be the ONLY moderate size vehicle, but many/most Americans driving these oversized vehicles do it for status rather than function. I bet 9/10 4x4 never see the mud. Case in point, a female engineer I work with has this huge female inferiority complex and admits she bought the biggest truck she could find because it makes her feel big. Its funny just watching her stretch to get in the thing after complaining about the price of gas. :rolleyes:

Mom can haul 2.4 kids to soccer and the beach in a station wagon as well as non-mini minivan. My parents had 4 of us and the Chevy wagon always hauled the load.

But back to the real subject - bring on the Astra. :yes:

[VTHokie00SL2]

Hmm, seems I forgot to vote in the poll! :yes: Guess I'll go with "don't care". I'd rather see it built in the United States, but as long as it's not built in some third world nation where people make a dollar an hour, at least it'll create decent jobs somewhere.

I will not be buying one, however.

[saturn_69]

WooHoo! Thanks for quoting me Charlie, in the front page report you did on this poll. I feel so special! hehehe

[Citation84]

The only real concern I have with it, is that it is a "stop gap" offering of 1 or 2 years, then gets dropped and becomes an orphan, replaced by a completely different home NA built replacement. If it will continue to be offered ALONGSIDE the EVOKE or whatever it will be called, that's fine. But not two years and gone, replaced by something else. That would kill it in the resale market, and Saturn doesn't need any more product that does that. Short term gain for long term damage is not a bright move.

[saturn_69]

The only real concern I have with it, is that it is a "stop gap" offering of 1 or 2 years, then gets dropped and becomes an orphan, replaced by a completely different home NA built replacement. If it will continue to be offered ALONGSIDE the EVOKE or whatever it will be called, that's fine. But not two years and gone, replaced by something else. That would kill it in the resale market, and Saturn doesn't need any more product that does that. Short term gain for long term damage is not a bright move.
Yes, but since the basic mechanicals (suspension, drivetrain) of the Delta platform will be retained (and the current Astra uses them right now, as well), it shouldn't hurt when you consider Honda completely redesigns a car every 4 years and most car companies tend to do a style upgrade every 1-2 years as well.

[rossao1]

... Americans are obsessed with the feel and refinement. .... Post #102

LOL. That is soooo wrong. Americans are very price driven. Just look at the success of Walmart. "Bang for the buck" etc... BTW this price driven attitude will be the demise of the US manufacturing if it continues.

Europeans are more "Obessed with the feel and refinement" than the typical US citizen .

[haypops]

Post #102

Europeans are more "Obessed with the feel and refinement" than the typical US citizen .

LOL Ya! and their ****e don't stick either.

We all need to take a deep breath and relax a little. People have more in common than not every where. Even Iraqi love thir kids. French people like a good deal, and the Germans put their trousers on one leg at a time.

[rossao1]

What I'm hearing is that Saturn may do what they did with the L300: build a stockpile of 2007 IONs this fall so that when the line shuts down at the end of the year (December), retailers will have enough cars to last until the 2008 Astra arrives.

Charlie
For some reason, I feel like this is supporting my prediction for the Saturn car company consolation. Maybe it is just paranoia. But, It is really getting me down.

[saturn_69]

Post #102

LOL. That is soooo wrong. Americans are very price driven. Just look at the success of Walmart. "Bang for the buck" etc... BTW this price driven attitude will be the demise of the US manufacturing if it continues.

Europeans are more "Obessed with the feel and refinement" than the typical US citizen .
Really? Then explain the success of ToyoHondas. It certainly isn't because they are cheap, if it were bang for the buck, we'd sell more Malibus than Accords when you consider that there's about $7K difference between the V6 versions....of which the American is less costly. So it can't be about money, it's about perceived quality...about 'feel and refinement'. That's the whole selling point of Lexus and 10's of thousands of Lemmings...er, Americans pay a premium price for a Toyota Camry by another name. Thats' not bang for the buck.

[spencerb]

Most people like the idea of importing the Astra, but when there were rumors a few months back of the next VUE being imported from a GM plant in Mexico, no one liked the idea. (Those rumors seem to be false, BTW).

[PAGuy77]

I wouldn't mind seeing the Astra sold here in the US as Saturn's next small car. I like the fit and the interior finish of the Astra. It would be nice to add those same features in the next small car from Saturn. Doesn't GM manufacture the Opel? I was never sure about that. If they do, either way, it will still be a GM product hopefully w/out the GM side badging.

[Uzzy]

I wouldn't mind seeing the Astra sold here in the US as Saturn's next small car. I like the fit and the interior finish of the Astra. It would be nice to add those same features in the next small car from Saturn. Doesn't GM manufacture the Opel? I was never sure about that. If they do, either way, it will still be a GM product hopefully w/out the GM side badging.
Opel is a division of GM. And, personally I like the side badging. :yes: But I know a lot of people don't :no:

[99sl2guy]

Most people like the idea of importing the Astra, but when there were rumors a few months back of the next VUE being imported from a GM plant in Mexico, no one liked the idea. (Those rumors seem to be false, BTW).


The trial balloon Mexican Vue rumor, and the fact that this poll's results are front page news on this forum, are related... GM would love to sell us a third world built Saturn.But evidently that time hasn't arrived just yet.Its close though,and just like the large SUV owners, that just a couple of years ago declared that the love of their vehicles would cause them to accept a higher price for fuel (which helped the current rise in fuel cost), those who declare an indifference as to the country of manufacture, shouldn't be surprised when "third world badging" occurs. I value American workers more than American corporations, so it matters to me where the manufacturing occurs.A well made european auto added to the lineup is not so much a detriment to our society as is a "maquilladora"(sp.?) or pacific rim offering,which to me is a step down a slippery slope.So I'll vote "NO WAY" in this and any other poll that seeks permission/validation to offshore Saturns.You may be asking for european flair and performance,but given GM's past business decisions,they might just deliver a Mexican Vega,or an Asian Chevette.I like the way saturn started,and when I bought mine I found it to be as good in quality as the foreign cars some of my friends drove.As time has passed,it has aged well and continues to give outstanding service despite my not so gentle ownership.When the time comes for my next car,I'll support the corporation that supports American workers.When that is no longer an option,I'll look for a responsible alternative.Saturn,to me was a high point in the automotive era.After coming of age, the US auto industry took a dive in quality in the 70's and 80's.Saturn was proof that America could still build quality cars if they tried.I'll regret having to abandon them...but I most certainly will if they force the issue.

[cdp326]

I think it should be restated that this would just be temporary until the next Saturn small car would be ready, which would be built in the US.

[desired name]

Will they call the Redline version a Monza? (Chev Vega/Monza)

I'm not interested in replacing my Ion with a hatchback.

-If i wanted a hatchback i would have purchased one i the first place.
-A hatchback takes longer to heatup in the winter and cool down in the
summer.
-If you carry a gas can in your trunk to fuel up small engines at home you dont have to breath in any fumes like you would in a hatchback.

-How would this effect the price in Canada? Automakers can import autos from the
USA duty free, not from Japan and not from Europe.

-The 5 door weighs about the same as my Ion3 but with much less HP.
-Does any one have a spare ION for sale that i can store till i need it? ;)

[gdf]

ABSOLUTELY, Y E S
Bring it in.
Finally...a "different kind of car."

I would definitely go for a diesel option as well. The demand is there GM -get with the program.
I will otherwise go with an Import -gas or diesel.


I will NOT buy a rebadged Chev/Pontiac :no:
(Idiots)

[dcamden]

I agree. Don

But I would like to see it built here in the US.:usa:[/QUOTE]

[DuSpinnst]

I think it should be restated that this would just be temporary until the next Saturn small car would be ready, which would be built in the US.

It might not even be imported per say, the car can be design tweaked here (radio dash changes to rit our market), and assembled in the US.

[cdp326]

I revived this thread because while I was looking on GMInsideNews, I found pictures that someone put up of the Brazilian Chevrolet Vectra, which is actually an Astra. They sell a sedan model there. The platforms for the Astra have me confused with how they do it, but here's the pics anyway.

http://www.globalautoindex.com/images/cars/4411/5238/norm_1_Vectra_2005_BRA.jpghttp://www.globalautoindex.com/images/cars/4411/5238/norm_22_Vectra_2005_BRA.jpg
They got the pictures from here. (http://www.globalautoindex.com/model.plt?no=5238&ass=#)

For comparison, the Astra hatch (which looks great in this pic; this is a Holden version): http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/6819/holdenastrasporthatch1ab.jpg
I wouldn't be surprised if this turned out to be the small sedan. The lines of the doors are obviously Astra. I think it would look pretty good with some Saturn badges...and the wheel arches would probably be right at home with the Aura. :yes: I did a length conversion from the 4815 mm listed at the site. It came out to be about 181.8 inches...so it would fit in better than the current ION. :yes:
I would still like to see the Astra sold here as a wagon and 3 door though. If you look the Holden and Chevy in the pics have the same rooflines and door lines (obviously not same door as ones a hatch, the other a sedan) so the fenders would probably swap, so the Opel front could go on making it more in line with the Saturn look. Slap on some US-spec bumpers and Saturn badges, and then we'll move onto the interior. :yes: :D

[haypops]

send a link to the inside GM link. I read elsewhere that it would be too ecpensive to import the Astra from Germany/Sweeden. Instead the chevrolet Vectra from Brazil would become the next ION replacement. I believe that is what you have pictured here. The Brazillian Vectra is actually the previous generation Astra. These are interesting times.

[cdp326]

send a link to the inside GM link. I read elsewhere that it would be too ecpensive to import the Astra from Germany/Sweeden. Instead the chevrolet Vectra from Brazil would become the next ION replacement. I believe that is what you have pictured here. The Brazillian Vectra is actually the previous generation Astra. These are interesting times.

I don't think it is. Wikipedia lists the Chevrolet Vectra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Vectra) as based on the Astra C (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opel_Astra), if by "a new, locally designed Vectra sedan, based on the smaller Astra" they mean the Astra C. The doors and A pillars seem to be identical to the Astra 5-door. The old, previous generation Astra is still sold in Brazil as the Chevy Astra, and it wouldn't make sense for both vehicles on the same platform to be sold with different exteriors and interiors.

Here's the Chevrolet Vectra site for Chevrolet of Brazil:
http://www.chevrolet.com.br/vectra/index.shtm

Here is the GMInsideNews forum link:
http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26902&page=7

[haypops]

well thanks for the links. It's still not clear to me though. This will be fun.