Would You Buy a Saturn Made in Mexico? [Archive]

PurdueGuy

07-11-2005, 01:52 AM

I voted no, but it's actually more of a "probably not". It would weigh heavily, but not be a totally deciding factor. Also, note that people DO play a large role in quality, even if machines are used. It is certainly possible for people anywhere to make good quality vehicles, but often when plants are moved like this, it is to take advantage of cheap (and often highly uneducated) labor. If machines make mistakes, a less educated person may be less likely to spot the problem (dependant upon their training).

A man who I knew growing up worked for an electric motor company, at a plant in Indiana. The motors were excellent quality. Then the management decided to move the factory to china. Before he moved to another branch, during the transition period, they were receiving the early products of this new plant. The motors tended to catch fire. This was more of a materials problem, though. About 6 months later, he returned for a visit, and I was talking with him. He was still involved with testing the products from china, which were still not good enough to use. They would receive one batch, and the motors would have practically no oil in them. The engineers would tell the plant the proper amount of oil to put in the motors, and those people would instruct the assembly workers on the proper amount. The workers, however, did not have a concept of importance of specific amounts, but simply understood "more oil". The next batch of motors came, and the pallet (not yet opened) was dripping with oil. They literally were dumping oil from the motors.

angrysote

07-11-2005, 02:06 AM

burnout

07-11-2005, 02:09 AM

Holy Capslock batman...

Anyway: If I was considering to buy a saturn and it was in Mexico... I would definitely give the car less thought to buy. It would take a full run around on the dealer lot, and probably an overnight test drive to get me convinced its a decent product. Now, if the engine was made in mexico, no way. BUT: Because I can be assured that the engine is indeed a honda and not built in mexico, that would sway the decision highly towards 'yes'.

angrysote

07-11-2005, 02:14 AM

cad_man

07-11-2005, 03:10 AM

I have owned 2 VW's made in Mexico, One I got rid of after 7,000 miles the second one after 9200 miles. I will never own a vehicle of any kind or brand that is made there.

cad_man

redlineman

07-11-2005, 03:22 AM

"In the assembly process , most of the car is built by machines from what I understand using computers and what not-- so the quality should be similar to one made in the US"

in mexico, there are few machines in plants, because it's actually cheaper to have manual labor do it. ever see the inside of a mexican plant? crowded is an understatement.

Bullet

07-11-2005, 04:01 AM

Not for the American price right now.
This country is going to Hell faster every day now :hothead:

Elsongs

07-11-2005, 04:19 AM

edwilson13185

07-11-2005, 06:19 AM

Tony Kay

07-11-2005, 06:50 AM

As a now retired GM hourly retiree from a now closed GM pant, which outsourced to Mexico I am bitter. GM does not care about their workers or retirees in fact they probably wish we would die so they would not have to pay us anymore.
I would never buy any vehicle not made in the U.S. that means no for Canada also, we are not on a level playing field anymore with Canada, GM or not. I's is great that they have a union but it is the CAW not UAW we now have to look out for the working class in U.S.
If the Mexicans started a union it still would not change my mind.
As President Kennedy said back in the 60's "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country"
Be loyal to the U.S. buy purchasing U.S. made products.

edwilson13185

07-11-2005, 07:18 AM

What do you think about purchasing products built here by non-American companies (Honda, Toyo, etc.)?

I'm curious as to what UAW people think about them, given that Honda and Toyota workers both generally enjoy good pay and benefits.

John10

07-11-2005, 07:32 AM

The reason I was originally attracted to Saturn was the company's decision to manufacture the car in the US using a unique labor/management relationship. Nothing against Mexico but I do not want to see Saturns made there.

babbittbunch

07-11-2005, 07:37 AM

Before I decided to buy a Saturn, I was looking for just "an economical car." I personally will only buy American made cars produced by American owned companies, and I wanted something dependable. So, I was looking at the Chevy Prizm, the Ford Escort, and Saturn.

I quickly found out that the Prizm rolls of a Toyota assembly line - it is a Corolla with Chevy name plates. Strike the Prizm, no matter how good it's ratings.

I next found out that the newer Escorts sport a Mazda engine, are built using a Mazda chassis, and produced in Mexico. Bye, bye!

So, I set my sights on Saturn, and found my 99 SL1. And I love it!

But, had it not been American made, I would not have considered it.

The Math God

07-11-2005, 07:57 AM

OhioVueBoy

07-11-2005, 08:11 AM

I don't care, personally.
My purchase will give someone a job - it may be for what *we* would consider a substandard wage, but it puts sustinance on someone's table and a roof over their head.

Newsflash for y'all... VW's quality numbers are actually HIGHER on vehicles produced in Puebla vs their Hanover, Osnebruck, and Wolfsburg plants.

I'd rather buy a car made in Mexico than send one red cent to the automotive conglomerate known as Honda.

~D.J.~

sspeer

07-11-2005, 08:11 AM

Knowing that my VUE was built in the US was a definite plus.

texan

07-11-2005, 08:36 AM

I prefer to buy American-made. I wouldn't buy a Mexican Saturn.

martlet

07-11-2005, 08:49 AM

Buying American is still important for our family. Our jobs are all service industry - not manufacturing so there is no direct connection and we do purchase import items all the time. However, driving American made cars from Saturn (for the last sixteen years) has been our vote for the best made longest lasting and best value product available. That all of our cars were built in the Spring Hill plant gave us peace of mind on each of our last three purchases. The quality from that plant had been wonderful. Infact, we purchased a Vue within a few weeks of its introduction largely because of our confidence in Saturn and particularly of the workers at Spring Hill.

YES - Americam made matters for our cars. PLEASE KEEP THE VUE ON THE HILL.

Respectfully

Scott

Stone Mountain, Georgia

Current SW@ and Vue owner.

JDRedline

07-11-2005, 08:51 AM

THE ONLY THING I CAN SAY IS THAT SATURNS ARE SUPPOSED TO BE ALL AMERICAN VEHICLES, I WOULD HATE IF THIS WAS TO HAPPEN, PERSONALLY IF IT HAPPENS I WOULD NOT BUY A SATURN AT ALL. I DO NOT KNOW THE NUMBERS, HOWEVER IF THIS MOVE SUPPOSED TO HELP GM AS A COMPANY, IN THE OTHER HAND IT WILL BE SAD FOR MANY SATURN FANS, INCLUDING MYSELF. I HAVE NOTHING AGAINST MEXICO ASSEMBLIES HOWEVER SATURNS WERE BORN HERE AND SHOULD STAY HERE.

PLEASE DON'T LET THIS HAPPEN!!!!!!!!!!!! :us:

That is the the final element that would make Saturn loose it's originality:

The buying experience, distinctive looks (until the Cavalier and Sunfire started copying the "look" of Saturn), polymer panels, and completely American-made.

JDRedline

07-11-2005, 08:54 AM

I don't care, personally.
My purchase will give someone a job - it may be for what *we* would consider a substandard wage, but it puts sustinance on someone's table and a roof over their head....

Just not Americans.

I'm all for globalization, but not at the cost of American jobs.

Damned greedy corporations!

We're quickly becoming the United Corporations of America.

unkle bik

07-11-2005, 08:57 AM

Hell no.
Send my sentiments to Bob Lutz. :(

Although, within 20 years, I seriously doubt ANYTHING will be manufactured in the USA. :us:

This country will become a toursit destination for the Chinese.
"Ah yes, I am going to the Rust Belt Museum in Ohio...." :hmpf:

davidsky

07-11-2005, 09:04 AM

I'd buy a Mexican made Saturn if the quality were decent.
Don't blame the Mexican workers for the quality of your VW. It would've been crappy no matter where it was built.

MydnightMyst

07-11-2005, 09:09 AM

HE double hockey sticks NO. I am a GM Union member and I would NEVER buy a Saturn made in another country! How dare they even consider making them in Mexico. I am SO sick of NAFTA and our manufacturing jobs going down the drain. What, do they honestly think that after they move ALL of the jobs out of this country, that we could afford new cars?
I could not afford a new car WITH my factory job that I have now.
They are hiring people at ONLY 9 bucks an hour now, and those people are FILING FOR BANKRUPTCY!
Sure, 30-40 bucks an hour was excessive, but now we're on the other end, where 9 bucks is too little for such work that is labeled as DANGEROUS, CANCER CAUSING, HARD LABOR, FORCED OVERTIME, and having to deal with the day to day politics that Unions and Managements play. THEN they move our jobs out of this country, saying it costs too much (yet they still make a profit) for US workers. So, then despite all of the above BAD things, they take the ONLY good thing about it AWAY!
This makes me so mad, I am going to write Saturn. If they move ANY Saturn vehicle to Mexico, I will SELL my race car and my street car and get something else. THAT is how mad it makes me. I will never have anything to do with Saturn again if they do this.
This is nothing personal against anyone on here, I am just very angry at Saturn for even considering this.
No, factory work is NOT easy, but it's the only thing we have (us factory workers), in 99% of the cases. Very few of us would ever fit into the white collar world of desk jobs in tall buildings. I know I would not.
I also know I am glad I started my own business. I hope it does well as it's looking to be the only thing I have left. :(
To those people who would buy a Saturn made in Mexico, well, this is America and you are free to do what you want, but you will be buying a car made in another country, supporting cheaper labor and lax environmental laws, and STILL paying the same price for the vehicle. Just think about that.

edwilson13185

07-11-2005, 09:20 AM

Unless you study, most folks don't know where their car was built, or for that matter, where most of the parts come from.

I bet a lot of folks think a Honda Accord is made in Japan and a VW Beetle comes from Germany.

It's a shame that people don't know what is made where. Perhaps if people knew what "buying American" meant, it would be different. I suppose it isn't that I see jobs being shipped out of this country as unique to GM/Ford/Chrysler, because it obviously isn't. But Ford and GM especially capitalize on that "patriotic buy American" sentiment, when they themselves are doing some pretty bad things to our manufacturing base.

Until that changes, I will continue to buy U.S.-made vehicles, regardless of what emblem is tacked onto the bumper. Some of the money may go back to Japan, but a lot of it is reinvested here in the U.S. in the form of capacity expansion. And it puts dollars back into the hands of the middle class, which is the backbone of society, despite what politicians and executive officers have to say.

Aquarius

07-11-2005, 09:29 AM

:no: I want to drive a vehicle that supports our economy, our workers and human rights - including those countries that we hold 'live aid' concerts for to relieve some of the struggles created by companies that profit off the backs of those most in need. Does Sweden make a car? I will find another company or another county to buy a car from - I only buy Canadian grapes - and have for more than 15 years.

drumr

07-11-2005, 09:31 AM

Absolutely not. I bought my '92 SL2 new to SUPPORT the Saturn endeavor. It was a new car, with an excellent design, built in a then-state-of-the-art factory, by American workers, working as a team. I thought that was worth supporting then, and I still do. I'm a patriot, and I do a great deal of voting with my dollars.

BTW, wouldn't a Mexican VUE actually be a No-Va...ba dum bum.

Laurence

07-11-2005, 09:36 AM

No, I'm not interested in buying a Mexican-made Saturn because when we bought our first Saturn (SC) in 1992 we were buying American and supporting the American worker.

But car content could be coming from just about anywhere these days. The VUE and ION VTi transmission was made in Hungary. We've bought three Saturns over the years and will continue to buy Saturns if the quality is comparable to other manufacturers--but not if they're made in Mexico. BTW, the engine for the Equinox is made in China from an old GM pushrod design.

On the other hand perhaps we should bear in mind that Honda, Toyota, and now more recently Hyundai, as well as others, create many thousands of jobs for American workers by assembling many of their vehicles in the U.S. so we have to be careful about labeling vehicles with foreign names as "foreign" when many thousands--even millions of them maybe--are assembled by American workers in the good old U.S. of A. who might not have a well-paid job had these assembly plants not been built by "foreign" companies.

cdp326

07-11-2005, 09:50 AM

THE ONLY THING I CAN SAY IS THAT SATURNS ARE SUPPOSED TO BE ALL AMERICAN VEHICLES, I WOULD HATE IF THIS WAS TO HAPPEN, PERSONALLY IF IT HAPPENS I WOULD NOT BUY A SATURN AT ALL. I DO NOT KNOW THE NUMBERS, HOWEVER IF THIS MOVE SUPPOSED TO HELP GM AS A COMPANY, IN THE OTHER HAND IT WILL BE SAD FOR MANY SATURN FANS, INCLUDING MYSELF. I HAVE NOTHING AGAINST MEXICO ASSEMBLIES HOWEVER SATURNS WERE BORN HERE AND SHOULD STAY HERE.

PLEASE DON'T LET THIS HAPPEN!!!!!!!!!!!! :us:

So Saturns are supposed to be all-American? Then let's see, BMWs are supposed to be all-German (Spartanburg IIRC plant in South Carolina), and Nissans, Mitsubishis, Toyotas, Hondas, Hyundais, and Kias are supposed to be all-Japanese/Korean (Nissan-Smyrna, TN...the others have plants all over, I can't remember where they all are.). BMW was born in Germany, and the others were born in Japan/Korea.

It's not always the workers at the plants that are to blame for poor quality; it's sometimes the parts that are supplied to them.

daprezjer

07-11-2005, 10:11 AM

Of course the entire contents of the car aren't made in the U.S., but it has always been assembled and used a majority of American parts, more so than any other brand. It's for this reason that I bought a Saturn in the first place. I definitely wouldn't do it if I knew it was assembled somewhere else. And why can't we vote in this darn poll anymore?

AJR

07-11-2005, 10:12 AM

For me, this tells the tale regarding the quality of products made in Mexico. I used to buy most of my cloths and gear from LL Bean. It was mostly made in the USA. Well, in recent years, they started buying nearly everything made in Mexico. Although it's the same great company, there was a marked decrease in the quality of the products as far as my experience goes. I fear the same will hold true for Saturn (the car part that is, maybe not the 'same great company' part). :]

Andy

LTS

07-11-2005, 10:22 AM

I don't think I can post right now without offending a great many people. So I will attempt to limit my words.

It would not bother me that the car is assembled in Mexico. If the car's price tag does not meet my standards then I won't buy it, regardless of where it's built. I am not an American only person because that "movement" is chock full of wannabes. It's a nice talking point but very few people actually put it to practice.

Your money is already leaving the United States everyday in so many ways. If you believe that this would have a major impact, you should do some research. Try looking at where the bank that holds your money is investing it. You might not want to use your bank anymore.

daprezjer

07-11-2005, 10:28 AM

Every little bit helps. I don't think anyone here goes out and tries to buy only American. But when it comes to making a large purchase, one shouldn't be denounced for trying to make a small difference. There are many cars in the Saturn price range. If wanting to buy American gives Saturn the slight edge over its competitors, more power to em.

Bertillion

07-11-2005, 11:20 AM

No thanks.

jaydubau

07-11-2005, 11:30 AM

Enough is enough. Sure I use to buy imports years ago, but one factor in buying my 1st Saturn, [1993 SL2], was 'USA made' :upset: . We need to keep jobs in USA, or we'll all be working in a rice field before long. :no:

saturnhater2

07-11-2005, 11:30 AM

Pete93SL1M

07-11-2005, 11:37 AM

Not only would I not purchase a Saturn from Mexico, I would not sell them either. If all (or a significant portion of) production goes south of the border my conscience would force me to change jobs. I'll sell Canadian Camaros and Buicks first!

OhioVueBoy

07-11-2005, 11:47 AM

spooky

07-11-2005, 11:49 AM

I will not buy any car built in Mexico or any other cheap labor market, or worse yet, a car built under an oppressive Communist regime like China's! As it is, sometimes we have little or no choice with other products, but I hope it doesn't come to that with automobiles. And even if it does, I will continue to fight the trend, at the very least by voting against the politicians who support unregulated "free trade" at the expense of middle class U.S. jobs and often at the expense of our strategic interests.

I sympathize with your viewpoint and feel your pain... however, pick up several objects in your home and tell me, please, what does the "MADE IN..." stamp say on the underside? Not that easy to be committed to unpopular points-of-view in America, huh? ;)

spooky

07-11-2005, 12:20 PM

Rumors suggest that the next generation VUE will not be manufactured in Spring Hill, Tennessee, but possibly at a GM plant in Mexico instead. Would you consider buying a Saturn made in Mexico? Post your thoughts.

Thanks for participating,
Charlie

Charlie,
Is this the SAME plant GM I heard was rumored to be built in Mexico City in the mid 1990's? If so how does GM justify outsourcing work to a 3rd world country, like Mexico, that has all sorts of problems none more critical than overt political corruption and covertly sanctioned illegal drug trafficking Into America? Won't this involve Spring Hill lay-offs? How will this impact Spring Hill and Tennesse local economy due to loss of tax income from Saturn? Will this be the causality to incresed Tennessee crime rate as it has been apparent troughout the rest of America recently? What will the Bush administration do to stop this wholly un-American act of disloyalty? Will costly US government-inspired safety recalls be enforceable once Saturn is there? Is this inspired by NAFTA or is it just another un-American "end-run" around taxes and middle-class American salary needs like Stanley Works (Connecticut) tried to pull a couple of years ago? Will their telephone customer service departments wind up in Bangalore (India) like all of the other loyal American company's have done recently? What's happening to America!

So many questions but so few answers...
:us: :dizzy: :us:

ricksLS1

07-11-2005, 12:28 PM

I sympathize with your viewpoint and feel your pain... however, pick up several objects in your home and tell me, please, what does the "MADE IN..." stamp say on the underside? Not that easy to be committed to unpopular points-of-view in America, huh? ;)

In many cases you have no choice. Look at you shoes, clothes, electronics etc. Most are not made in the USA. Dell may assemble PC's here (I believe the laptops are made in the far east) but the parts are mainly from offshore. America is losing it's manufacturing base and this downward slide is continuing.

futurevue

07-11-2005, 12:35 PM

Right now I would have to say no. If it actually happened I could change my mind in a few years. After a couple years of being built in Mexico the numbers for quality would be out by then. I wouldn't buy a first year car made out of Mexico. I'm a Detroit girl so I try to pick my car based on how much is American and where it is built. GM, Ford and Chrysler all have their HQ's in the Detroit area so the money they make gets pumped back into the local economy.

lone_wolf

07-11-2005, 12:41 PM

If Saturn goes to Mexico made cars, this will be my first and last Saturn for sure!!!! My previous car, a 02 Z24 Cavalier was made in Mexico, you can tell by the VIN #. In the 3 years I owned it, it rusted horribly, always broke down, never ran right, etc. My gf's 02 Cavalier was made in the US, it still runs strong, and rust free today.. Coincidence? I dunno. But I'm not buying Mexico made cars. :upset:

our03VUE

07-11-2005, 12:46 PM

HELL NO!!!! :usa:

edwilson13185

07-11-2005, 12:53 PM

I'm assuming that the design will still be done in the US.

So... my thoughts are: The high costs of Union Labor have pushed yet another manufacturing operation outside the borders of the USA. Too bad!

Honda and Toyota build cars here and pay as much or more than UAW workers get, and they provide a similar benefits package. It can be done.

But what difference would it make if design went overseas, as well? People seem to think that the white collar positions are immune to outsourcing/offshoring, but they're not. I'd bet many GM engineers make roughly what the assembly plant workers make. Why is it OK if the assembly operations go to a third world country, but not design?

You're right. It is too bad that the jobs that have supported our middle class for so many decades are going overseas. Too bad that two people have to work in the family to make ends meet because two low paying service jobs are needed to replace that one well paying factory job. Yes, that is too bad. We'll all be paying the price for corporate greed eventually. Who will buy their products when there is finally no more credit dollars left to give?

ttreibel

07-11-2005, 01:27 PM

I have a Dodge Ram assembled in Mexico so far I only found one bolt that wasn't properly torqued. The fit and finish was good. All the trips this truck has been to the dealer for have been related to engineering issues not poor assembly.

I always figured that Spring Hill was the Heart and Soul of Saturn. I find it hard to believe that a non Saturn automobile would be made there. I hope this is all roomer mongering. :cry:

PurdueGuy

07-11-2005, 02:41 PM

For those who think that Japanese made cars don't support poor working conditions, look beyond the car company to the parts suppliers. This may have changed since I learned about it, but at least in the late 80's/early 90's, major japanese automotive companies would purchase their parts from small vendors who often had shops in horrible locations & in horrible conditions. Chemicals not handled properly, etc. The companies used these small vendors to protect themselves from changes in economy - market takes a downturn, these small vendors go out of business. As I said, this may have changed, but I don't know...

ricksLS1

07-11-2005, 02:49 PM

Honda and Toyota build cars here and pay as much or more than UAW workers get, and they provide a similar benefits package. It can be done.

But what difference would it make if design went overseas, as well? People seem to think that the white collar positions are immune to outsourcing/offshoring, but they're not. I'd bet many GM engineers make roughly what the assembly plant workers make. Why is it OK if the assembly operations go to a third world country, but not design?

You're right. It is too bad that the jobs that have supported our middle class for so many decades are going overseas. Too bad that two people have to work in the family to make ends meet because two low paying service jobs are needed to replace that one well paying factory job. Yes, that is too bad. We'll all be paying the price for corporate greed eventually. Who will buy their products when there is finally no more credit dollars left to give?

Toyota just opened a plant in Mexico recently

L-300

07-11-2005, 03:14 PM

Not for the American price right now.
This country is going to Hell faster every day now :hothead: I say that exact same thing every day. with the supreme court voting on the side of big business and instating the law that let's the government take your home if it deems your home empeeds progress by not giving in to the "wal-marts of this country (the government can take your home if big business wants to build a factory or store on your property or neighborhood) this country is turning into communists. WE MUST STAND UP TO THESE TYRANTS!! THIS COUNTRY REALLY IS GOING TO HELL!! THANK GOD I'M NOT THE ONLY ONE TO RECONIZE THIS FACT :hothead:

PurdueGuy

07-11-2005, 03:28 PM

instating the law that let's the government take your home if it deems your home empeeds progress

You think that's new? lol that's funny. Read up about the highway running through Boston - not the new dig one, but the one that that big tunnel project is replacing.

RatLabGuy

07-11-2005, 03:41 PM

I refuse to buy a Saturn/GM vehicle, or any vehicle for that matter, that is assembled in a third world country under substandard labor conditions. It's bad enough that just about every consumer product is built in, or at least has a few parts from, a third world country. If GM ever wants me to buy one of its vehicles again, it has to make me believe that its quality is at least that of the Honda I have now, and it must be built under good labor conditions by workers who are paid well for their time.

It's not just where the entire car is put together, either. If major parts of the car are put together under poor working conditions, they can count me out as well. Engines from China or Mexico, for example.

Um, I hate to be an ass, but Mexico is not by ANY means considered a third world countries, nor is China.
Right up front, I'm a believer in supporting your/our country's economy, so other things being equal buying an American-made product is the way to go.
But the fact of the matter is, it comes down to how much Joe American is willing/expecting to pay for his automotible, and how much that "built in America" sticker is worth to him.
It just costs more to build cars here, that is a fact. Currency value aside (and that's a BIG part of it), a big chunk of the cost is related to this idea of how workers are compensated and treated by the company, and the flipside, what they are willing to put up with to have employment. That is, GM American employees are expensive, b/c they expect decents benefits, retirement, and a good wage (>$10/hour). I'm not saying that's unreasonable; that's just what yer average American considers to be normal. In contrast, Jose Mexican (Joe's counterpart!) is willing to work for much less, and have no benefits - he's just happy to have a job of some kind.
As long as we have standards that are more stringent, it is easier for the company to go to other places. That's just economics and capitolism playing against us.
President Foxe recently goty into a lot of trouble for teh way he said something, but what he meant was completely true - Mexico and Mexicans are getting more work b/c they're willing to do things that Americans are not.

PurdueGuy

07-11-2005, 03:56 PM

Some good comments, ratlabguy. Makes me wonder,though, is there such a thing as a second world country? :) Why do we never hear the terms first and second world country?

SL02Sport

07-11-2005, 04:29 PM

Would you consider buying a Saturn made in Mexico? Post your thoughts.

Thanks for participating,
Charlie

Before I comment one way or the other, our government, particularly the intellectually-elite folks in the Senate, need to face-the-fire over the miserable -failure- of NAFTA and other so-called "free trade" agreements... which haven't lived-up to the hype. The President and others on Capitol Hill need to start making some serious noise toward trading partners that aren't playing by the rules.

As for Saturn potentially building in Mexico, I say, "Go ahead", but I won't buy one. The Japanese and Koreans employ Americans to build cars to sell to Americans, so let Latin-American countries by Mexican-made Saturns. The next car that I buy will be from a company that has a demonstrated commitment to employing Americans, and if they're with the UAW, that would be a plus. I believe in unions, but as someone else in this thread pointed out, paying a UAW member $35+ an hour is partly why they're headed south-of-the-border in the first place. GM deserves to make a profit and pay -their- retirees, too, without deflating their stock price and jeopardizing their employee pension fund, like what happened with United Airlines. The original Saturn-UAW labor agreement was groundbreaking, and what a shame that both sides elected to abandon rather than re-work it. Now we're back to the same ol' management/union adversarial relationship. IMO, the only way the American automakers and the UAW will survive is to be forward-thinking: throw-down-the-gloves, cooperate as they once did, and keep jobs here in the U.S.! :us:

vinnie_86

07-11-2005, 04:58 PM

Here's my spin on this. I voted "Don't Care." Why, because I will buy a vehicle that meets my needs at the time needed. I bought my '99 SW2 because: I needed something bigger with kids on the way, I liked the fact it was built in the USA, and I like the no haggle buying (I did my research on the net and walked in wtih my printout of exactly what I wanted and said "Find This." I had my car within two days. The car has been great, I'm sure due to the fact it was built in the US. Sadly Saturn has a way of coming out with cars people like after the other makers, that is why I have an '05 Odyssey, Saturn came out with the Relay too late. And the whole corporate greed thing is way out of control. How many jobs could be created or saved if the top tier of these corps. took a pay cut of $1 mil or more a year each? Just how smart are these people at the top anyways? What exactly makes you worth what you earn? I bet you'd never get a direct answer!
Sorry, back to the Mexico thing. If the price dropped to match the labor costs, I might(?) consider buying, but probably would not and look elsewhere. Most likely Chevy. And if you try and buy "AMERICAN", please stay the HELL out of Wal-Mart!! Thanks for letting me vent.

VTHokie00SL2

07-11-2005, 04:59 PM

saturnfreak01

07-11-2005, 05:29 PM

"""I'd rather buy a car made in Mexico than send one red cent to the automotive conglomerate known as Honda."""

I think you have bigger monsters to worry about than Honda OhioVueBoy-- did you forget about Toyota which is much larger, much richer, and more capable of taking over the world as your thoughts suggest than American Honda Corporation.

I don't understand why some people are so focused and sometimes blinded by a loyalty to an american company-- in GM's case a falling star desperate to gain leverage in an ultra competitve market while fighting off creditors and smiling in the face of companies like Toyota, Nissan, and Honda who have built up excellent reputations for dependabilty, quality, and resale value, and their respective sales suggest these reputations resonate with American consumers.

I for one- could ultimately care less where a car is made, or who stands around building it, or whether they make $ 20.00 per hour or $ 1.00 per hour. I expect quality, and most of all, my monies worth. Everything else is unimportant.

dcp

07-11-2005, 05:30 PM

no sir,I would not buy from Mexico!

Pete93SL1M

07-11-2005, 05:38 PM

Don't you drive an Australian Pontiac?
~D.J.~

What does that have to do with Saturns being built in Mexico? I would pay MORE for an Aussie Saturn if it had the fit and finish of my GTO.
The engines that are seizing up in Relays were assembled where, again? That's right- good ole' Mexico.

Dione

07-11-2005, 05:56 PM

NEVER!
I choose this car (over some pretty darn nice vehicles made in other countries) BECAUSE it was an American car, made in America by Americans.

sewsmartliz

07-11-2005, 05:57 PM

One of the main reasons I bought a saturn in the first place was because it was an American Car. I'm a believer in speending your money where you
earn your money. If Saturn wants to move their works to Mexico for cheaper
labor then NO I will not buy Saturn (even though I love my L series) I will be forced to return to Buick or Cadillac again :usa:

VTHokie00SL2

07-11-2005, 06:12 PM

If Saturn wants to move their works to Mexico for cheaper
labor then NO I will not buy Saturn (even though I love my L series) I will be forced to return to Buick or Cadillac again :usa:

Just make sure it's not a Chinese Buick or a Cadillac CXT from Mexico! ;)

Rogn38

07-11-2005, 06:21 PM

Made in Mexico....No
Lets not compromise the quality.

Lisa H.

07-11-2005, 06:29 PM

OhioVueBoy

07-11-2005, 06:43 PM

What does that have to do with Saturns being built in Mexico? I would pay MORE for an Aussie Saturn if it had the fit and finish of my GTO.
The engines that are seizing up in Relays were assembled where, again? That's right- good ole' Mexico.
Aah, it has a lot to do with it. I've been around the GTO (there are now 5 as of last week within 2 generations out from me in my family)... I know all about their "impeccible" build quality. Remember, the Jetta comes from Mexico, and sets the bar for interior quality and fit/finish on compact cars - and handily trumping the GTO (did I mention that the power seat is out in one of my cousin's GTOs, my uncles was delivered with a nonfunctioning stereo, and his taillight fell out of the spoiler with under 1,000 miles on the odo... wait - didn't C&D's test mule do the same thing 3 years ago)?

I'm sure that GM is sending Mexicans their reject substandard parts just so American consumers have a leg to stand on with their gripes about ****ty build quality. I'm all for keeping jobs in the USA... I live 15 minutes from the Trailblazer plant - but if this is what it takes to keep GM afloat, then why not. I'd rather have a car from Mexico than Korea or China.

~D.J.~

OhioVueBoy

07-11-2005, 06:48 PM

"""I'd rather buy a car made in Mexico than send one red cent to the automotive conglomerate known as Honda."""
I think you have bigger monsters to worry about than Honda OhioVueBoy-- did you forget about Toyota which is much larger, much richer, and more capable of taking over the world as your thoughts suggest than American Honda Corporation.

No, I may gripe about Toyota now and then, but i respect Toyota. Do I think they are better than GM, no, but I respect their design and engineering.

As far as this "blind faith" to GM... I don't consider the fact that GM kept food on my family's table through the depression, through the war, and gave my grandfather a job when he got back from WWII a blind faith. I don't consider the scholarship money I get because of being a GM Engineering Explorer for 4 years of high school a blind faith. I have a lot of personal ties with GM, from my relatives several generations back, through my father, and onto myself.

I'm still not afraid of change.

~D.J.~

Lisa H.

07-11-2005, 06:53 PM

Definately not!!! Mexicans and "made in Mexico" are taking over the USA. It would be a very sad day if Saturn/GM did this. I cannot even believe that they are even considering this. I love my SL...but if it were made in Mexico......I wouldn't even have considered buying it. Just my opinion.

I'm sorry if I offended anyone.......I live in an area where there are alot of illegals and our state is allowing it...and putting them to work, when there are others who cannot find jobs. That is why I am so upset over this.

RatLabGuy

07-11-2005, 06:54 PM

I want to clarify part of what I said before, just in case. I did not mean to say just that American workers need to accept lower standards for employment, but rather than American buyers are going to have to accept a higher cost/price tage for theat "made-in-america" sticker. Clearly that means something important to many folks here, but likewise, many folks just do not care as much, and will go for the cheaper buy (assuming equal quality). In mnay other countries, cars are very expensive for the everyday person, and come w/o most luxuries we have just b/c of keeping the costs down. I think that at some point Joe American will have to wake up and understand that there is alot of work/time/effort put into producing a car, and that its has to be expensive to reflect that.

Now, I know I'm gonna get jumped on for the following... I'm just looking for evidence/prooof (the sceintist in me).... I see many folks here directly saying "made in mxico is inferior quality". Why is that necessarily the case? If the engineering is identical, Q/C is identical, why does it matter what language the guy w/ the wlder speaks?

VTHokie00SL2

07-11-2005, 06:54 PM

I'm all for keeping jobs in the USA... I live 15 minutes from the Trailblazer plant - but if this is what it takes to keep GM afloat, then why not.

Well, for one thing, it seems morally wrong to me to pay a CEO $10 million a year and not even pay a decent living wage to your employees. Also, why should companies based in the United States enjoy all the benefits afforded to them by this country, including defense of the country by a taxpayer funded military, and then not give something back? Shouldn't GM have some sense of obligation to U.S. citizens?

As for the argument that giving Mexicans crappy jobs is still better than giving them no jobs - well, unless you're paying them enough to live what we would consider a decent middle class lifestyle*, and affording them the opportunity to better themselves and their children through education, then you're simply perpetuating poverty by exploiting an impoverished population to the detriment of the middle class here and in other industrialized nations.

*by decent middle class lifestyle, I don't mean 3 large screen tv's, two SUV's in the garage and a boat. I mean a decent home, running water, electricity, a clean environment, access to decent medical care, decent law enforcement, and access to education, including the opportunity to pursue higher education.

IceQueen

07-11-2005, 07:08 PM

Yikes-as a true believer in the kinds of quality products that can be and are manufactured right here in the USA, I am disgusted by the thought that any American would lose their job to save the "Company" a couple of bucks. I am more than willing to spend a little extra for QUALITY. I sure save alot of money because I refuse to buy anything that isn't made in the US. And now I guess that will include Saturns. Sigh. It never ceases to amaze me that whenever something is good, with nothing needing 'fixing', someone comes along and decides to change or 'improve' it. They will regret the day they sold out. Some things are more important than money. :usa:

PaulGraz

07-11-2005, 07:16 PM

I don't understand why some people are so focused and sometimes blinded by a loyalty to an american company....

No, you clearly don't understand. It's not loyalty to GM, it's all about maintaining the US ecomony.

I for one- could ultimately care less where a car is made, or who stands around building it, or whether they make $ 20.00 per hour or $ 1.00 per hour. I expect quality, and most of all, my monies worth. Everything else is unimportant.

And you would be in the majority of US consumers. "I don't care about anything, as long as I can save a few cents". It's this attitude that's killing our ecomony. By the time you and the others like you wake up, it will be too late.

I suggest you take a course in Economics and learn what the real issue is here. The job you save may be your own...

bobwill

07-11-2005, 07:44 PM

Similar to what I said in the thread about the loss of polymer, I'd only buy one if it fit my needs better than what else is on the market for the same money.
I'm not too asshamed to admit, the polymer and the fact that it was made in the US with an american engine in a hippiesque plant were bonuses in the Ion's favor when I chose it.

martlet

07-11-2005, 07:54 PM

I'm assuming that the design will still be done in the US.

So... my thoughts are: The high costs of Union Labor have pushed yet another manufacturing operation outside the borders of the USA. Too bad!

Here's what's happening with GM Design:
http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/jul2005/nf2005077_1341.htm

From the article:
" Korean Daewoo operations will work on subcompact cars and small SUVs"
" Engineers at GM Daewoo Auto & Technology in Korea are working on the next Saturn Vue small SUV for the U.S. market."

I am a very very big fan of Saturn - I truely want to continue to buy Saturn products in place of any imports. This brand is aimed right at me. If they need to design it in Korea and build it in Spring Hill - I'm still with them all the way. If designed overseas and built out of the US - well - it certainly becomes more like all of the other imports doesn't it?

Please - KEEP THE VUE FROM THE HILL

Respectfully,

Scott

Stone Mountain, Georgia

SW2, Vue owner

mjekot

07-11-2005, 08:06 PM

More Jobs going offshore.

Thank You!

Shut up, go to chruch, shop at Walmart........

saturnfreak01

07-11-2005, 08:27 PM

"""It's this attitude that's killing our ecomony. By the time you and the others like you wake up, it will be too late.

I suggest you take a course in Economics and learn what the real issue is here. The job you save may be your own..."""

For starters, I have taken a few courses in economics thank you-- and secondly, I am well aware of the shrinking job market and thousands upon thousands of jobs going overseas. This is sad yes- would I prefer jobs stay in the ole red-white an blue-- absolutely--

This dream however-- is fading-- not because of consumers- but because companies are cutting costs to be more competitive-- and looking at their bottom line! If one company moves jobs (such as Dell moving its customer service jobs to India) -- it can reduce prices making it more profitable. Compaq for example- will then have a harder time selling its product for it will be more costly due to higher labor costs in the US-- and Compaq will ultimately follow suit and move jobs overseas as well-- its a domino affect and will continue happening no matter how much people protest.

While I feel some sadness for those losing jobs to out sourcing, I suggest education-- maybe going out an earning a degree instead of working at an auto plant for 10-15-20 years with out ever trying to better oneself beyond a high school education would be a good idea.

While some careers are expanding such as nursing, others such as manufacturing are falling and nothing can be done to stop it.

1993SC2

07-11-2005, 08:30 PM

America works when you buy American.

nativue

07-11-2005, 08:33 PM

[QUOTE=burnout]Holy Capslock batman...

[[I]B]Anyway: If I was considering to buy a saturn and it was in Mexico... I would definitely give the car less thought to buy. It would take a full run around on the dealer lot, and probably an overnight test drive to get me convinced its a decent product. Now, if the engine was made in mexico, no way. BUT: Because I can be assured that the engine is indeed a honda and not built in mexico, that would sway the decision highly towards 'yes'.

Any of you guys out there old enough to remember when "made in Japan" meant junk? Now we're salivating over getting an engine made by them - because they now make excellent products! Our concept of Mexico and Mexicans might be limited to the relatively uneducated, hard-working folks who sneak across our border to cut our grass and clean our homes. We might be surprised at the depth and sophistication of some of the people living south of the border. I'm not saying the Mexican plant will build a superior or even equivalent vehicle, I'm just saying "let's wait and see".

mjekot

07-11-2005, 08:39 PM

[QUOTE=saturnfreak01]"""It's this attitude that's killing our ecomony. By the time you and the others like you wake up, it will be too late.

That was EXACTLY my point!!!!!!!!!!

Keep Informed.
Do not trust that Governments or Corporations have YOUR best interest in mind.

white95SL1

07-11-2005, 10:36 PM

Here's a nice story that made me proud of Saturn...

I went out to a mall with one of my friends this evening, and we were talking about Saturns while we were driving back. So he says that they may be assembled in the U.S., but most of the parts are imported anyway. Saturn of the Mountain Empire was on the way home, so I said that we would just see who was right. So we pulled in and looked at some of the window stickers. The ION says that it is 95% U.S./Canadian parts, and the VUE V6 says 65% U.S./Canadian. (I'm pretty sure those numbers are correct. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.) Our Saturn dealership is actually right beside an Acura dealer, so we went and looked at their window stickers. The RSX is 95% Japanese. He left with a new found respect for Saturn.

Does GM just dislike selling Saturns for some reason?

zborgerd

07-11-2005, 10:40 PM

VTHokie00SL2

07-11-2005, 10:46 PM

This is, by far, the best post I've seen in this entire thread.

I don't understand why so many people cheer the loss of decent paying middle class jobs. Why is it that someone making $60k a year in a manufacturing job is somehow being greedy, while it's okay for CEO's to be making $6 million a year or more?

angelnut

07-11-2005, 11:00 PM

If Saturn goes to Mexico...I know I wouldn't consider buying a Saturn again and I know others that feel the same way.

If our jobs keep going to Mexico and China, we won't have to worry about buying anything...because there won't be any money left in the US to purchase anything with! Eventually they will have to either lower prices or bring jobs back so we can afford to buy them again.

It isn't so much a quality issue as it is an issue of keeping jobs here at home. Without those jobs, and all the subcontractor jobs that go with the automotive industry...where do they think people will earn the money to afford to keep buying new automobiles? I lived in Michigan most of my life and worked in automotive related factorys, until the unemployment checks came more regular than my payroll checks...that was when we moved to Colorado and non-automotive related jobs.

Lori
94 SC2

jcrollins

07-11-2005, 11:02 PM

I would not buy a Saturn that was not made in Spring Hill. I have not been impressed with the quality of the L Series and think some of the problem was that there was not as strong a committment to the product in the second manufacturing location. Having bought 4 new Saturns in the past - most recent a 2004 Ion, next to moving away from Plastic side panels, moving out of Spring Hill would be the craziest idea I have heard so far. I really have like my 2001 SC2, the 1997 SL2 and the 1993 SL2 before it. All cars have been true to form with no major mechanical problems. I am concerned that a move to anywhere will result in quality problems. Lets face it, the main selling factor for the Saturns has been quality transportation, that you could run a shopping cart into and not have a problem at a reasonable price that was easy to maintain. These factors helped keep the resale value up and repeat business up.

zborgerd

07-11-2005, 11:07 PM

I don't understand why so many people cheer the loss of decent paying middle class jobs. Why is it that someone making $60k a year in a manufacturing job is somehow being greedy, while it's okay for CEO's to be making $6 million a year or more?

Why? Because lazy union works (and that doesn't mean all of them) have pushed factory jobs away from USA. Why is everyone surprised here? Mexicans can do it for less money , with the same level of top American quality, and still make more of them in less time. GM domestic quality control hasn't exactly been top-notch either.

I have family that retired from GM. I *know* what they do in those factories. I've been in them several times.

But, hey... Think of it this way. That union worker, who sits idle eating donuts and reading magazines, gives plenty of work to the repair tech at the local Saturn garage. It's win/win for everyone (this is sarcasm).

It's pretty amazing how the vast majority of people here can complain about a car, but don't give a hint of consideration to the hundreds of other products that they own that were made outside of this country. Oh no! Boycott your Chinese-made computer!!!

You have to put your money where your mouth is. It is *you* who refuses to buy any of the current Saturn lineup. Those that bicker are like the Judas of the Saturn brand. I'm not afraid to pay a few hundred for a nice pair of American made boots, instead of buying some cheap junk from Wal-Mart. The same rule applies to cars. News flash... Americans are buying cheap cars from Mexico. Look at the Focus. Look at the Neon. Look at the Korean cars that people are buying for $9000. Americans love cheap stuff, but don't ever take their factory jobs away!

Those that complained about the ION and its share of design quirks obviously never considered that the plastic dashboard budget had to go to some overpaid union guy that watches widgets move down a factory line. Take your pick. You can't have it all.

Aquarius

07-11-2005, 11:12 PM

I don't understand why so many people cheer the loss of decent paying middle class jobs. Why is it that someone making $60k a year in a manufacturing job is somehow being greedy, while it's okay for CEO's to be making $6 million a year or more?

:canada: has one of the best workforces in the world when it comes to building cars in general - Toyota will be opening a plant in the London (Ontario) area soon - perhaps it has something to do with quality of life; health care and unionized labour - workers that are healthy and earn enough to buy the vehicles they make, not just a bag of rice and a pound of balony. Ingersol (Ontario)is a car making town-and a strong union town- how cool that at the recent folk-festival (free) the parking lot has one foreign car (a Nissan) - the rest were made down the street.

Companies that look after their workers earn loyalty and pride in workmanship. Companies that exploit their workers end up with workers who can't afford the products they make, sick workers, hungry workers and decreasing quality, through no fault of the exploited workers.

Does GM ever think about who is going to buy the cars if there is no one who earns enough to buy one? :whoa: Looks like 78% of us support good jobs for the average joe. Lets think about tax writeoffs and corporate welfare vs. unionization. The first benefits a few, the second benefits us all. We have jobs because other folks in our communities have jobs to buy the stuff we produce. Stop fighting the little guy, get educated about who profits and stand up for decent wages for everyone to live a basic descent life. My money is going to say support employment and quality of life and quality of product. I am so proud :yes: that 78% of us get it - come on folks, lets make it 99.9% - educate a friend.

Caprice

07-11-2005, 11:49 PM

There is no freaking way I'd buy a Mexico-built Saturn of any model.

While I'm no big fan of manufacturing work (meaning I wouldn't personally want to do it) our country needs the jobs, no ifs, ands, or buts. I'm absolutely sick of outsourcing, IT or manufacturing, it doesn't matter.

SpeedPlayer 97sl2

07-12-2005, 05:05 AM

Outsourcing = good for other countries, bad for USA. In this case, Mexico benefits, and we lose.

While I think globalization is actually a good thing and helps bring other countries into the mix of more robust economies and better-trained workforces, we need to take care of ourselves first.

delivery man

07-12-2005, 09:36 AM

I'll have to pass on that one!

haypops

07-12-2005, 11:20 AM

cameraboy

07-12-2005, 11:21 AM

Not only would I not buy a saturn made in mexico, if they close down the Tenn. plant and move manufacturing to mexico, if they move ANY manufacturing to Mexico, I will never buy another saturn again.

In fact, I'm more and more open to the idea of buying a car made in the US by Americans under a foreign label than buying an "American" car made someplace else.

haypops

07-12-2005, 11:29 AM

Originally Posted by saturnhater2

This is, by far, the best post I've seen in this entire thread.

It is my understanding that the engineering is being done in South Korea. Likewise the plan is for tooling for North American manufactured products to use tooling made in South Korea.

haypops

07-12-2005, 11:32 AM

Mexicans have been buying UAW produced vehicles for ever. Haven't they contributed enough to deserve one ********** GM plant. I think Saturn is a special case to all of us here and prefer that some Chevy or Pontiac be built there instead.

phinman

07-12-2005, 11:36 AM

I dont think i would.

kevinthenerd

07-12-2005, 11:56 AM

I will not buy any car built in Mexico or any other cheap labor market, or worse yet, a car built under an oppressive Communist regime like China's! As it is, sometimes we have little or no choice with other products, but I hope it doesn't come to that with automobiles. And even if it does, I will continue to fight the trend, at the very least by voting against the politicians who support unregulated "free trade" at the expense of middle class U.S. jobs and often at the expense of our strategic interests.

That's exactly what I was thinking. If the robots do all the work, why can't they just keep the money home? It's stupid to me that political boundaries have such drastic effects on the money a man makes. Why should a Mexican who's just a few thousand miles south of us bust his #*@ to get a tiny fraction of the money I'm slacking off to get? If GM moves Saturn to Mexico, I don't know what I'd do. The SKY is amazing, but I won't buy it unless it's made here.

haypops

07-12-2005, 12:10 PM

? If GM moves Saturn to Mexico, I don't know what I'd do. The SKY is amazing, but I won't buy it unless it's made here.

Ths SKY will be made in Maryland at the plant that used to make the L series :) :)

OhioVueBoy

07-12-2005, 01:03 PM

Ths SKY will be made in Maryland at the plant that used to make the L series :) :)
Delaware, Delaware ;)

~D.J.~

SpeedPlayer 97sl2

07-12-2005, 02:27 PM

Why should a Mexican who's just a few thousand miles south of us bust his #*@ to get a tiny fraction of the money I'm slacking off to get?

But that begs the question, why should we get paid so much for slacking off and doing sub-par work?

Oh yeah, we're Americans, that's why. :ugh:

SW1Man

07-12-2005, 04:19 PM

:mad: No, I wouldn't buy anything from Mexico intentionally. I might just buy the forthcoming convertible, gee where will it be made? We'll see. GK
P.S. I sold Saturns proudly for 10 years and still have my Saturn station wagon, 1994 SW-1. Great car and going strong after 160,000+ miles. Went to Spring Hill several times and loved the original concept of Saturn. Those days are gone forever.......

unkle bik

07-12-2005, 04:33 PM

:mad: No, I wouldn't buy anything from Mexico intentionally.

How about tequila? :D

cdp326

07-12-2005, 06:31 PM

:mad: No, I wouldn't buy anything from Mexico intentionally. I might just buy the forthcoming convertible, gee where will it be made? We'll see. GK

It's already been said where it will be produced, in other articles elsewhere and 2 and 3 posts behind yours, and earlier in the thread too IIRC.

angrysote

07-12-2005, 07:30 PM

LIKE I SAID IN MY LAST POST I WOULD HATE SATURNS GOING TO MEXICO.
HOWEVER WE ALL HAVE TO TAKE A LOOK WHY THIS IS HAPPENING, AND THIS IS BECAUSE ONLY FEW PEOPLE THINK LIKE WE DO ABOUT SATURNS OR ANY OTHER AMERICAN VEHICLE.

YOU CAN GO TO THE SATURN DEALER AN THEN VISIT THE HONDA DEALER AND YOU WILL SEE THE DIFERENCE RELATING HOW MANY CUSTOMER EACH DEALER HAS.

I HAVE NO IDEA WHY WE ARE ACTUALLY COMPLAINING ABOUT PEOPLE LOOSING JOBS, IF THE AMERICAN MARKET LOVES TO BUY HONDA'S TOYOTA'S, NISSAN'S AND HYUNDAI'S

I THINK THIS IS WHY ACTUALLY ALL OF THIS IS HAPPENING, OUR MARKET LOVES TO BUY PRODCUTS FROM SOME WHERE ELSE, THEREFORE AMERICAN INDUSTRIES HAVE TO LOOK FOR DIFFERENT WAYS TO EARN CASH, GOING TO CHEAPER LABOR MARKETS AND LETTING PEOPLE WITHOUT JOBS.

LET'S BUY AMERICAN :us:

84conv

07-12-2005, 08:30 PM

NO I WOULD NOT BUY A STURN MADE IN MEXICO..... THE ORIGINAL IDEA WAS SUPPOSE TO BE A DIFFERENT KIND OF CAR COMPANY, NOT THE SAME OLD GM. I WILL SEEK OUT ANY FORD OR CHRYSLER MADE IN THE GOOD OLE USA. I DON'T HAVE A STICKER ON MY SL2 THAT SAYS :usa: MADE IN THE USA FOR NOTHING! :usa:

OhioVueBoy

07-12-2005, 08:37 PM

Damn people... kill the caps lock - it's bad netiquette.
~D.J.~

JDRedline

07-12-2005, 08:39 PM

...it's bad netiquette.
~D.J.~

"Netiquette." I love that. Very cute!

Rogn38

07-12-2005, 08:41 PM

Damn people... kill the caps lock - it's bad netiquette.
~D.J.~

It's like your all YELLING...relax...chill.
Only use Caps if your trying to loudly make a point. :)

angrysote

07-12-2005, 08:42 PM

It's like your all YELLING...relax...chill.
Only use Caps if your trying to loudly make a point. :)

I WAS ACTUALLY TRYING TO MAKE A POINT....

REGARDS

VTHokie00SL2

07-12-2005, 08:46 PM

I guess I should change my user name, eh? I actually meant to do that a while back, but I think Charlie has to make the change...

tgferg67global

07-13-2005, 02:07 AM

I don't understand why so many people cheer the loss of decent paying middle class jobs. Why is it that someone making $60k a year in a manufacturing job is somehow being greedy, while it's okay for CEO's to be making $6 million a year or more?

CEO's compensation, like it or not, is what the market is paying. UAW wages are artificially inflated to 2x what they would make doing a similar job outside the union and more than 3x with benefits. Also these type of comparable non union jobs do not have pension or health care after retirement.

Foreign non union plants are on the increase creating jobs and the domestics have their hands tied with the UAW so are running south of the border to control costs and be competative.

DrPimper

07-13-2005, 02:38 PM

I would not by a saturn built in Mexico for the same reason why I won't support most GM products besides saturns. and Tenchi Masaki has a really good point look at how less reliable the Mexico assembled VWs were compared to european ones.

OhioVueBoy

07-13-2005, 02:46 PM

and Tenchi Masaki has a really good point look at how less reliable the Mexico assembled VWs were compared to european ones.
He doesn't have a point at all. If you look up the numbers, VWs from Germany are typically more problematic than the Mexican built Jetta and Brazilian built Golf.

Compare the #s on the lower volume Jetta wagon to the Jetta Sedan. The wagon is built in Wolfsburg, the Sedan in Puebla.

~D.J.~

haypops

07-13-2005, 05:00 PM

The chrysler PT cruiser (made in Mexico) has been one of Chrysler's most relaible vehicles. Furthermore, when production first started on that car, the engine would not fit into the engine bay. The American/German designers blew it. It was the Mexican management that stoped production, worked out a solution, and brought succes to Chrysler. Furthermore Toyota, no sluch in inital quality, has been pleased with their Mexican operation and workers.

SkyVue

07-13-2005, 06:43 PM

Yes, I would buy a saturn made in Mexico. Canada and Mexico are classified as domestic by NAFTA. They are in the Americas, Now if the engine came from Japan, a la honda, then No. Keeping my fingers crossed that the next VUE will be a version of the Daewoo/Chevy S3X. Lets hope so. Slap a saturn bage on it and its a winner!

saturnfreak01

07-13-2005, 07:58 PM

VTHokie00SL2

07-13-2005, 08:03 PM

Why is everyone so willing to accept an economy that makes a few people rich and a lot of people poor, with little or no middle class? The path to a prosperous nation is one that affords everybody the chance to build wealth.

cdp326

07-13-2005, 08:31 PM

Actually the middle class in Mexico is on the rise. Sales of less-expensive luxury cars are rising, and so the manufacturers are responding with more sales of those cars there.

JDRedline

07-13-2005, 08:46 PM

... Keeping my fingers crossed that the next VUE will be a version of the ...Chevy S3X. Lets hope so. Slap a saturn bage on it and its a winner!

Just checked it out and that vehicle has Saturn Vue written all over it.

Attack of the rebadges!

edwilson13185

07-13-2005, 09:25 PM

I WIL POST HERE AGAIN, SINCE I THINK MY POST REALLY FITS YOU
MR. edwilson13185..

LIKE I SAID IN MY LAST POST I WOULD HATE SATURNS GOING TO MEXICO.
HOWEVER WE ALL HAVE TO TAKE A LOOK WHY THIS IS HAPPENING, AND THIS IS BECAUSE ONLY FEW PEOPLE THINK LIKE WE DO ABOUT SATURNS OR ANY OTHER AMERICAN VEHICLE.

YOU CAN GO TO THE SATURN DEALER AN THEN VISIT THE HONDA DEALER AND YOU WILL SEE THE DIFERENCE RELATING HOW MANY CUSTOMER EACH DEALER HAS.

I HAVE NO IDEA WHY WE ARE ACTUALLY COMPLAINING ABOUT PEOPLE LOOSING JOBS, IF THE AMERICAN MARKET LOVES TO BUY HONDA'S TOYOTA'S, NISSAN'S AND HYUNDAI'S

I THINK THIS IS WHY ACTUALLY ALL OF THIS IS HAPPENING, OUR MARKET LOVES TO BUY PRODCUTS FROM SOME WHERE ELSE, THEREFORE AMERICAN INDUSTRIES HAVE TO LOOK FOR DIFFERENT WAYS TO EARN CASH, GOING TO CHEAPER LABOR MARKETS AND LETTING PEOPLE WITHOUT JOBS.

LET'S BUY AMERICAN

I'm not sure exactly what it is you're meaning by your post. So let me reiterate. I bought a Honda Accord, which was built in Ohio, out of mostly domestic components. The Ford Focus, which I almost bought instead, was made in Mexico, and had a lower domestic parts content than the Accord.

Hyundai just spent over a billion dollars constructing its first manufacturing plant here. It is now building the Hyundai Sonata, and will soon build the Hyundai Santa Fe. Honda is expanding its transmission plant at Maryville, Ohio.

I'm not saying that the Japs don't build things with cheap labor, as Honda/Toyota have plants in Mexico, and Honda just finished building a plant in China. But GM doesn't need to be capitalizing on people who want to buy American when they themselves want to build cars elsewhere.

In any case, I don't feel bad about purchasing a Honda. Interestingly, when GM started using the Honda 3.5 in the VUE, its domestic parts content went up, since the Honda engine is made in Ohio.

I think if you don't want to support jobs moving south, then people need to not buy cars that are made there, regardless of nameplate. If you buy GM to support them, and buy one of their Mexican-made models, then you're supporting what they are doing.

In the end, it doesn't matter all that much to me. I wish they wouldn't move jobs out, but I suppose they have to because of the things they're required to do by the union here. I will be working in healthcare, doing direct patient care, so outsourcing will most likely never directly affect my job. My parents both work at a power plant, so same story with them.

But don't direct your posts at me as though I'm un-American. What I drive was built here, and I always have and always will make a conscious effort to buy American when I can. Regardless of whose logo is on the front of it.

mars_volta

07-13-2005, 09:29 PM

"gee, its dead and cold... do ya think we should put a bullet in its head? "

"yeah, good idea...pop.. pop"

Dijital357

07-13-2005, 11:37 PM

We really need those jobs in this country, helping our economy. I really don't like all the outsourcing that US companies are doing these days- no wonder our economy isn't so good these days. This is why it important to elect politicians who will protect American jobs. :us:

omowasu

07-16-2005, 01:58 AM

No, I would absolutely not buy a Saturn made in Mexico. I am patriotic in my purchasing habits, and often go out of the way to buy American - even if it means mail-ordering my clothes so as to avoid a retailer that exclusively imports clothing.

That is not the only reason that I would not buy a car made in Mexico, however... The other reason is that there are plenty of foreign car companies building new plants in the good ol' USA - and profiting doing so. For Gods sake, Hyundai is opening a plant in Alabama to produce the Sonata! HYUNDAI!!! The only reason that GM would consider Mexico is to save a couple bucks on labor - at the cost of quality. If GM outsources or offshores more of their production, they will lose a whole **** of a lot of customers to foreign companies that invest in this country. Most people buy GM cars because they are American made (mostly).

I know a lot of folks that wont touch a Canadian-made GM either. I dont mind that so much, as I spend a lot of time in Canada - and CAN employees are paid a good living wage (albeit in Loonies).

Mexican made VW's and Nissans have all kinds of problems - plants out there are not the most high tech. Anyone on this board ever seen pictures of the Silao GM plant?

I passed on the Chevy Avalanche and Cadillac Escalade EXT for the same reason - why in the **** would I pay almost $60000.00 for a pickup made in Silao, Mexico?

Jammer

07-16-2005, 09:44 AM

So they move to mexico, get rid of the polymer. I go buy a Honda, Made in USA. The reason I bought my SC2, wifes ION and Mom's L300 is that they are made in the USA and plastic. get rid of either one of those items and the brand is not worth the time of day.

dp97sc2

07-16-2005, 01:23 PM

I voted no along with almost everyone on here....I'd be more likely to buy a 'used junker' of an s series than a 'new junker' from mehico. Im with the guy above, get rid of made in usa,or get rid of polymer panels and those are 2 powerful reasons to get rid of Saturn in terms of new vehicle possible purchases. There will be one exception: since getting rid of polymer reduces costs+ moving plants to mexico reduces costs, I would buy a steel mexico saturn for 1/2 the price (e.g. a totally loaded saturn that went for 25k now goes for say 12k). Since I know they won't do that , I won't buy.....
.
Finally, IMHO a steel body mexican saturn is only worth 1/2 the price cos it will only be 1/2 the car it used to be.

GR898SL2

07-16-2005, 03:54 PM

This is all too much too soon. The price Saturn has paid for long term survival has been high. What remains of the original Saturn experiment is the no-haggle pricing structure, which will eventually be adopted by the entire industry, and customer service. I wonder if building Saturns in Mexico is an attempt by GM to recoup the original investment of setting the company up only to reel it back into the corporate fold after twelve years.

:flag:

piney

07-16-2005, 05:12 PM

Rumors suggest that the next generation VUE will not be manufactured in Spring Hill, Tennessee, but possibly at a GM plant in Mexico instead. Would you consider buying a Saturn made in Mexico? Post your thoughts.

Thanks for participating,
Charlie

Just coming back from three weeks of virtually no Internet, I'll reply without reading the 5 pages first:

Would I? No. As an inaugural Saturn owner from 1991, I bought Saturn as it was truly a unique Made in the USA car, designed and built in the USA with good old USA ingenuity - like polymer and the lost foam castings.

Nowadays, Toyota and Honda make as many cars in the USA as the Big Boys do or did. If I wanted to buy a car made in Mexico, I'd buy a VW. If I want an American Car, I suppose I need to buy an Avalon. :hmpf:

Reb

07-17-2005, 12:06 PM

No, I would not buy any vehicle made in a country where the company relocated to take advantage of cheap labor. The Mexican workers making the VW New Beetle won't make enough in wages in ten years to allow buying themselves one of the very vehicles they're making. That's sad! Doesn't say much for VW either. I'd much rather buy a Hyundai made in Alabama than a VW, Saturn or any other brand made in a third world nation or worse a communist nation like Red China.

REB

Reb

07-17-2005, 12:26 PM

I must admit, I work at the new Hyundai plant in Montgomery, AL. It's very automated, state of the art, and certainly isn't turning out any junk. I've seen Sonatas pulled off the line for a tiny piece of dust in the paint inside of a door jamb! I know first hand since I work in paint repair and fix them. We have a zero tolerance for defects mentality at Hyundai and we're proud to strive for perfection. I seriously doubt you're going to find that kind of attention to detail from someone that can barely afford to eat well and is living in a mud hut or cardboard box in a third world country.

REB

kilcher

07-17-2005, 10:51 PM

What remains of the original Saturn experiment is the no-haggle pricing structure, which will eventually be adopted by the entire industry, and customer service.

Even that's a joke IMO. I used to work taking Saturn calls in a phone center and we'd tell everyone there was 1 price and no rebates because the cars weren't marked up as high. I think 1 price ceased to exist when Saturn started offering rebates. Technically not everyone pays the same price. Not to mention the fact that most retailers will screw you on your trade by only giving what they'd get for it at an auction.

s-seriesguy

07-17-2005, 10:58 PM

Hell no I wouldn't buy one.

JDRedline

07-17-2005, 11:55 PM

... I seriously doubt you're going to find that kind of attention to detail from someone that can barely afford to eat well and is living in a mud hut or cardboard box in a third world country.

REB

I find that Mexicans working in this country are usually very hard workers. I'd think they they'd have the same mentality in their own country where they have a good job.

haypops

07-18-2005, 12:35 AM

I would definetly buy a car made in Mexico. The people there have been buying our cars for years and deserve a GM plant. They, likewise have proved they can produce a good car.

dp97sc2

07-18-2005, 01:22 AM

+ as I said cut the price in 1/2 and then you'll sign me up for one of them(heck cut the price down by 1/3 and I'm in), otherwise forget about it. Why should we as consumers buy a non american,non union product for the same price just so a corporation can make more $? Pass the savings onto us or forget about it.

poiuytrewa

07-18-2005, 02:38 AM

if i was lookin to buy another satty and it was made in mex, i wouldnt even give it another look. that non-reggulated trade crap flushes most if not all quallity down the crapper. so, in other words= Would i buy a satty made in mexi? not no but HXXL NO!
-just my .02$

___
where are we going? and whats with this handbasket?

poiuytrewa

07-18-2005, 02:40 AM

I find that Mexicans working in this country are usually very hard workers. I'd think they they'd have the same mentality in their own country where they have a good job.

the thing about that is that they wont be working on cars they're gonna buy, they're workin on cars they'll never see again once they leave the plant and going to the US so they wont really care

kilcher

07-18-2005, 02:42 AM

the thing about that is that they wont be working on cars they're gonna buy, they're workin on cars they'll never see again once they leave the plant and going to the US so they wont really care

I would disagree with that and I think most people would. I agree very much with the post you responded to. However, I would still not buy a car made in Mexico. It costs Americans jobs and the prices don't reflect the cost savings. All it does is pad the pockets of shareholders.

ricksLS1

07-18-2005, 09:27 AM

I would disagree with that and I think most people would. I agree very much with the post you responded to. However, I would still not buy a car made in Mexico. It costs Americans jobs and the prices don't reflect the cost savings. All it does is pad the pockets of shareholders.

Do you own any stocks or mutal funds? If you have investments in Large Cap index funds you most likely are a shareholder of GM. Any 500 index or Total Stock market index has a portion of GM stock. I'm a shareholder and I think many here are and may not realize it .. Not that I would by a Mexican bulit Saturn. Funny as Honda makes most of it's vehicles in the US and Saturn (The import fighter) will be making vehicles (Should say assemble) in Mexico :dizzy:

SlapCaddle

07-19-2005, 12:23 PM

OhioVueBoy

07-19-2005, 01:04 PM

:usa: It would be a great idea if there was a common link where we could all let Saturn know before they made this mistake (Move to Mexico) :us: Possibly post a prefilled form in this thread and elsewhere that we could all easily send them. :flag:
Do you honestly think that they are going to change their minds?
It's not necessarely a "mistake", it is called progress.
~D.J.~

haypops

07-19-2005, 01:23 PM

It's really not Saturn's decession, it's GM's. They will squeeze in whatever they want, wherever they want. This is the way it should be. In a somewhat related topic, I read that Pontiac sales were down 16% last month while Chevy, Saturn, and Buick were up,up,up. Pontiac is to get a Delta based car in a hurry. Perhaps it will come from Mexico instead of Saturn, but letter writing will not help.

VTHokie00SL2

07-19-2005, 05:27 PM

It's not necessarely a "mistake", it is called progress.

Outsourcing to cheap labor markets is not necessarily progress. Just because a corporation does something, that doesn't make it right. And just because you have an opinion, that doesn't make all other opinions invalid.

OhioVueBoy

07-19-2005, 07:13 PM

Outsourcing to cheap labor markets is not necessarily progress. Just because a corporation does something, that doesn't make it right.
I never said it did... but it is the way of the world these days.
And just because you have an opinion, that doesn't make all other opinions invalid.
So true so true, now tell me about polymer being gone, hunting, the ION vs. the S...

Sometimes the advice we attempt to give needs to be looked upon by ourselves.

~D.J.~

GR898SL2

07-19-2005, 08:39 PM

It's really not Saturn's decession, it's GM's.

And therein lies the problem. If Saturn could continue to operate with greater autonomy, we would still have polymer built cars coming out of Spring Hill with a unique labor agreement. But that is not to be. Now GM makes the decision to 'outsource' Saturn production. If they build them in Mexico, what's to stop GM from going to China or Taiwan next if the Mexican market starts creeping up in terms of expenses? That is what has most of the veteran SaturnFans fighting mad, at least the longtime ones who preceded both you and me.
What has progressed since the early part of this decade, after the last S-Series rolled off the assembly line, is to be expected as GM pulled Saturn into the corporate fold and now expects it to be a full-fledged division and no longer the different kind of car company. More GM rules to follow, more GM ways of doing things - as if the decade or so of independence hardly mattered. We (as in Saturn/SaturnFans) are not used to that kind of arrangement/thinking and the new order within GM corporate and there has to be an adjustment period. I honestly don't know how long that will take, whether it's in terms of months, years, or decades.
That being said, I suspect that the decision by GM to build Saturns beyond SH and outside the country is the last straw for many who supported the original Saturn mission. It's the equivalent of a major slap in the face for what they've believed over time and will now need to rethink.

:flag:

VTHokie00SL2

07-19-2005, 09:19 PM

So true so true, now tell me about polymer being gone, hunting, the ION vs. the S...

You always bring up hunting...guess I hit a nerve with that. I just don't consider killing animals and/or deliberately inflicting pain on at least the more intelligent animals to be much of a "sport". It's hunting for "sport" that I really have a problem with. But that's a topic for another discussion.

The difference is, I'm not complaining about topics being posted simply because I don't agree with the opinions. Unlike you, I'm not telling anyone not to post their thoughts.

JDRedline

07-20-2005, 08:44 AM

Regarding outsourcing, I heard an interesting commentary on NPR yesterday about American corporations rushing to get into the lower-cost running countries. And the foreign countries, like China, are rushing to buy up everything American to stay in this country. Like IBM, they're now aiming for Maytag and Unocal.

OhioVueBoy

07-20-2005, 08:49 AM

Unlike you, I'm not telling anyone not to post their thoughts.
I've never told anyone that.

People need to learn that when there is a thread regarding a topic, to not create another one on the same topic. That's all I have said.

~D.J.~

SpeedPlayer 97sl2

07-20-2005, 11:12 AM

To lighten things up a bit, and still keep on the topic of Mexico...

...I like horchata. :D

cdp326

07-20-2005, 04:29 PM

The head people at GM DO read the SaturnFan's website...but like OVB said it's doubtful you'll change their minds.

spooky

07-21-2005, 03:12 PM

Anyone remember the days of shoe shiners, blacksmiths, a barbershop on every corner? Through out time various jobs have been eliminated—this is the changing environment we live in. To hang on to one line of work or expect certain jobs to be around forever isn’t realistic.

The dreams of factory workers being employed in the USA forever isn’t a reality, it isn’t 1950 anymore- we are living in corporate America. One trick pony’s will be left out in the cold- “survival of the fittest” as they say applies here. It isn’t up to everyone “else” to support those working in blue-collar jobs with little or no education beyond a high school diploma by buying products they find undesirable.

The responsibility belongs with the individual- certain jobs are going to leave the USA, or be eliminated no matter how hard people try to hold on— these people need to accept they cannot stop this—and need to change to a different line of work to survive, possibly spend some more time in a class room.

The environment in the USA- will be forever changing. Acceptance is key

"Anyone remember the days of shoe shiners, blacksmiths, a barbershop on every corner?" Yeah but the shoeshine boy became the LOCAL shoe store, the blacksmith became the LOCAL metalurgy company, the barbershop became... uh well it stayed the same... Or maybe became the LOCAL SuperCuts at the LOCAL Mall. Notice LOCAL not Bangalore, Dublin, Bucharest, or Mexico City. I absolutley refuse to have my shoes shined in Bangalore. They use way too much chutney...

"To hang on to one line of work or expect certain jobs to be around forever isn’t realistic. " - One can see your overall point but that is not the case with this new Neconservative move to betray American citizens via offshore outsourcing. When computers and robots came out it was a logical move to eliminate assembly line jobs for this George Jetson age. Robots don't need bathroom or water cooler breaks, vacations, sick leave, nor unions. But to send our jobs to MEXICO???!! That's just pure intrinsic greed. The love of money.

Consider this capital generating cost savings: Do you think Saturn-GM will pay Mexicanos a living wage - NO! Will they have a comphrensive health plan and benefits - NO (they won't even bother to fully staff a HR or Employee Benefits department - that'll be outsourced too). Do you think they will have a union (i.e. Mexican collective bargaining unit) - NO! (Pedro: "Union? We don' nee' no stinkin' union..."; SmarmySaturnGM-MgmtGuy-w-SouthernAccent: "That's right José you tell 'em boy!"; Pedro: "But señore my name es' Pedro..."; ) :blockhead:

Its funny that you should invoke “survival of the fittest”. This is the exact sentiment of the Eugenics Movement started during Charles Darwins period in the 19th century and has not gone away yet! The fundamental goal of Eugenics movement INDIRECTLY fits into the MO (i.e. modus operendi) of all of these rich fat cats' agenda. Google:EUGENICS to save me the rant and rave diatribe about it.

"These people need to accept they cannot stop this—and need to change to a different line of work to survive" - That's absolutley right! There's plenty of jobs at McDonalds and Wal-Mart! "Possibly spend some more time in a class room" - right again SaturnFreak! Huh... wait a minute there... but where do I get da' money fo' school if I ain't got no job Mista' Bush. "But... but... No child left behind!" you retort? Hmmm... well sounds like another unfunded mandate to me (i.e. unfunded mandate means: they are demanding it but they ain't paying for it - ever).

Hmmm... "Acceptance is key" you say. Well as all of us dumb ol' *Yogi Berra (http://rinkworks.com/said/yogiberra.shtml), *George Santayana (http://www.iupui.edu/~santedit/), and *Locutus deBorg (http://www.conphotos.com/2000/07/DEFCON/LETO/borg.jpg) fans would say: "Sounds like: 'Resistance is futile' all over again to me...".

Spooky :us:

Said in a noticeably fake Texas accent with similar sincerity: "Like I always say... America!... Love it... or Leave it... uhh... well... let me rephrase or embetter that statement... you know my French entourages don't know the meaning of the word entrepeneur... you know...they ain't been to Yale like me..." - G.W. :arr: Bush :whoa:

*sardonic aserbic wit? Google it!

spooky

07-21-2005, 04:15 PM

Just like I buy stuff at Wal-Mart (http://i.walmart.com/i/p/00/05/07/43/44/0005074344076_AV_500X500.jpg) knowing full well that people are making some of this stuff in slave labor camps in China (http://www.house.gov/weiner/report37.htm) I would probably still buy the Saturn VUE knowing it was made in Mexico. What can I do? I don't make enough money due to the "poor man's" economy brought on after year 2000. The VUE would have to be cheap as just think of all that "slave labor" Saturn-GM would have in Mexico?

However, I have to take note of Mexico's president Vincente "NAFTA" Fox's strange rise to power after so many untimely and pesky assasinations (http://www.kairoscanada.org/e/urgent/uaMexicoDignaOchoa011029.asp)! Man... Just think if Judy Woodruff (CNN) was right, our country was only a heartbeat away from daddy :arr: Bush becoming US president much sooner than originally planned back on 3/22 1981 (Beware of the Ides of March (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/03/0311_040311_idesmarch.html)). Just think we lucky Americans would ALREADY have this great and progressive offshore outsourcing and dirt cheap SW Asian oil for our Saturns polluting our air supply more cheaply. Stupid air! WHO NEEDS IT? JOBS ARE MORE IMPORTANT- right :dizzy:? It would be a very chilly (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0319262/) "new world (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?r102:E29MY1-130:)" way out of "order"! Imagine a totally corporate-run world of of the movie RoboCop (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0093870/). President Eisenhower (http://coursesa.matrix.msu.edu/~hst306/documents/indust.html) would be proven true!

"The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist." - Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1961

dcp

07-21-2005, 04:42 PM

G.M. Saturn please dont do this!

rgnelson

08-06-2005, 09:48 AM

Study? The origin of parts is listed on the window, as well as the location of final assembly. Granted, parts source is limited to regions, such as "North America" (USA and Canada).

I was looking at a Sentra while purchasing my 2005 Ion 1. One major strike- final assembly of the Sentra is Mexico, no longer Tennessee. The saleman tried to tell me it was assembled here. Liar.

haypops

08-06-2005, 09:57 AM

[QUOTE=rgnelson]Study? . Granted, parts source is limited to regions, such as "North America" (USA and Canada).
QUOTE]

Mexico is part of North America also.

rgnelson

08-07-2005, 05:38 AM

[QUOTE=rgnelson]Study? . Granted, parts source is limited to regions, such as "North America" (USA and Canada).
QUOTE]

Mexico is part of North America also.
I wastrying to say that, under the American Automobile Labeling Act, parts made in the US/Canada are grouped together, and parts from other countries are listed separately.

marmaduke

08-07-2005, 09:51 AM

sc2dave

08-08-2005, 08:41 PM

i say screw it, let g.m. do whatever the hell they want,and let's not buy saturn anymore. those who still wish to do so,go ahead, those who don't,then don't. G.M. will see and feel the results of their stupidity!!!!

VTHokie00SL2

08-08-2005, 09:08 PM

This whole "losing jobs" talk is rubbish.. There are millions of new jobs created as millions of jobs go... Importantly, the new jobs created are in more high tech side where as the jobs that go out are more low tech and tedious ones. The former are gained by first world countries where as the latter are handed over to the third world countries...

That's no longer the case. And try telling that to my dad, who already switched careers once in his life, and then had his job outsourced to India. He's now working for less than half of his previous salary. And he is a consultant now, as nobody wants to hire computer programmers as full time employees. As he approaches 60, I think it's a little late for him to switch careers again. I guess people like him are just SOL, huh?

haypops

08-08-2005, 11:21 PM

I was reading a architecture community board and they were complaiing that there jobs were foing to India also. By the way the administration has decided to let India build F15 jet fighters there.

spooky

08-18-2006, 03:14 PM

Did anyone notice how GM uses actors to portray American GM employees in those GM employee discount ads? Obviously GM wants to have it both ways, pretending to be a US company supporting US jobs while in actuality moving jobs out of the country.

A more realistic commercial would show a bunch of Mexicans saying, "You pay what we pay. Oh wait, I forgot, I can't afford a GM car even with the discount because I only make $1.50 an hour!" :DIn the humorus words of THE SIMPSONS Mr. Montgomery Burns (the quintesstential and evil Neoconservative metaphorical "Stone Cutter") - "EXCELLENT!" :arr:

Good one VTHokie00SL2! - "The farce is strong in this one Smithers!" :D

kevinthenerd

08-19-2006, 12:33 PM

I wouldn't buy a Saturn made in Mexico. I originally picked a Saturn because the final assembly is here and the corporate money goes here. My next car will most likely be foreign. I'm thinking about getting something crazy cheap (like a Rio or an Accent) to save up some money (while working as an engineer) to build a street legal racecar... longitudinally-mounted mid-engine, rear wheel drive, small displacement boosted motor, tube chassis, etc. etc.

kadillac81

09-04-2006, 07:00 AM

If you want an "American" car you should look at what Japan has to offer. Lexus is an American branch of Toyota. My plans are to just keep my 1992 SL2 with 180K on the clock!

haypops

09-04-2006, 10:01 AM

]If you want an "American" car you should look at what Japan has to offer. Lexus is an American branch of Toyota. My plans are to just keep my 1992 SL2 with 180K on the clock!

These issues are quite complex. Lexus is not an American car. No Lexus cars are built in North America. August 2006 Lexus has imported 18,376 cars. The truck story is just a little better. August 2006 figures are 4920 imported Lexus trucks and 7778 North American built ones. The Toyota brand (but not Scion) is much more American than is Lexus with huge numbers of Corolla and Camry models (and their derivatives) being built in places like Kentucky, Freemont CA, and soon in Texas.

http://pressroom.toyota.com/Releases/View?id=TYT2006090194824

ChristianMex

09-10-2006, 08:37 PM

Hi all,

I get here by causality, but well, I keep reading your posts about the Mexico Plant...

And in fact Spooky, you really don’t have any idea of the REAL Mexico, I know there in US are a lot of immigrants, a lot of "Mexicans", and the majority of them make low profile works, low budget works, low payment works...

But you need to come to Mexico, and to learn something about the REAL Mexico, and not your "supposed one", don’t blame or just talk about something you don’t know.

In Mexico the workers have rights, they have a health plan, obviously not as the US, but a good one... yes, we have Unions of works called Syndicates, they promote the rights of the workers in the companies, one of the biggest one is of VW in Puebla (the city where they do them).

We are not like China, we are SO, SO different, don’t compare us like as any other 3rd world country; any country has their system, their people, laws, etc. Who is different in each "3rd world country"… China has their good things, but their labor conditions are well known are bad ones…

Really you need to know the REAL Mexico, and no just talk in the "air", I’m Mexican, but I’m not wear hats, or mariachi hats, I don’t prepare tacos for selling them, or something like that, I speak well Spanish, English and French, and no.. I don’t say “Soy Pedro”, I’m a Mexican who has university, who has a post-grade course, I own a company in Marketing, I travel to a lot of countries (maybe more than you) all year long for business, and I don’t care about the people, the government, I care about the quality, the service, the commitment and the work of the people.

By the way, I own a SEAT Leon Turbo, made in Spain (a 1st world country) and trust me, it really sucks, but maybe is not the problem of the Spain worker, maybe is the problem of the engineer who has made bad things, or the financial worker who make a bad choice in buying some parts… and maybe, the Engineer of the Financial people is an American… get the point?

If you don’t want to loose jobs, make you own better.

When you want to critic something please know well first, yeah maybe I sound aggressive, but it’s the true.

I’m not again the US people, I have a lot of friend on US, I have go a lot of times there, a lot of cities, and like in all, theres Good People, and bad People… so, think twice before you talk again about Mexico.

Christian

"Anyone remember the days of shoe shiners, blacksmiths, a barbershop on every corner?" Yeah but the shoeshine boy became the LOCAL shoe store, the blacksmith became the LOCAL metalurgy company, the barbershop became... uh well it stayed the same... Or maybe became the LOCAL SuperCuts at the LOCAL Mall. Notice LOCAL not Bangalore, Dublin, Bucharest, or Mexico City. I absolutley refuse to have my shoes shined in Bangalore. They use way too much chutney...

"To hang on to one line of work or expect certain jobs to be around forever isn’t realistic. " - One can see your overall point but that is not the case with this new Neconservative move to betray American citizens via offshore outsourcing. When computers and robots came out it was a logical move to eliminate assembly line jobs for this George Jetson age. Robots don't need bathroom or water cooler breaks, vacations, sick leave, nor unions. But to send our jobs to MEXICO???!! That's just pure intrinsic greed. The love of money.

Consider this capital generating cost savings: Do you think Saturn-GM will pay Mexicanos a living wage - NO! Will they have a comphrensive health plan and benefits - NO (they won't even bother to fully staff a HR or Employee Benefits department - that'll be outsourced too). Do you think they will have a union (i.e. Mexican collective bargaining unit) - NO! (Pedro: "Union? We don' nee' no stinkin' union..."; SmarmySaturnGM-MgmtGuy-w-SouthernAccent: "That's right José you tell 'em boy!"; Pedro: "But señore my name es' Pedro..."; ) :blockhead:

Its funny that you should invoke “survival of the fittest”. This is the exact sentiment of the Eugenics Movement started during Charles Darwins period in the 19th century and has not gone away yet! The fundamental goal of Eugenics movement INDIRECTLY fits into the MO (i.e. modus operendi) of all of these rich fat cats' agenda. Google:EUGENICS to save me the rant and rave diatribe about it.

"These people need to accept they cannot stop this—and need to change to a different line of work to survive" - That's absolutley right! There's plenty of jobs at McDonalds and Wal-Mart! "Possibly spend some more time in a class room" - right again SaturnFreak! Huh... wait a minute there... but where do I get da' money fo' school if I ain't got no job Mista' Bush. "But... but... No child left behind!" you retort? Hmmm... well sounds like another unfunded mandate to me (i.e. unfunded mandate means: they are demanding it but they ain't paying for it - ever).

Hmmm... "Acceptance is key" you say. Well as all of us dumb ol' *Yogi Berra (http://rinkworks.com/said/yogiberra.shtml), *George Santayana (http://www.iupui.edu/~santedit/), and *Locutus deBorg (http://www.conphotos.com/2000/07/DEFCON/LETO/borg.jpg) fans would say: "Sounds like: 'Resistance is futile' all over again to me...".

Spooky :us:

Said in a noticeably fake Texas accent with similar sincerity: "Like I always say... America!... Love it... or Leave it... uhh... well... let me rephrase or embetter that statement... you know my French entourages don't know the meaning of the word entrepeneur... you know...they ain't been to Yale like me..." - G.W. :arr: Bush :whoa:

*sardonic aserbic wit? Google it!

montrealvue

09-10-2006, 10:12 PM

Well said Christian.....I think many Americans associate Mexican manufacturing with substandard products. Mostly stemming from manufacturers like Volkswagen who pushed poor engineering and design through the factories then blamed the workers when quality went down. VW's managment were to blame for THEIR mistakes, the workers were just doing what they were told. Fast-forward 15 or 20 years and more and more is being manufactured in Mexico at better quality levels. To answer the question "would a buy a Mexican built car?" .... if it were a reliable model yes. To say I would not buy a car because of the country in which it is produced is just ignorance. I think every country has it's lemons and indestructable models.

mellissam

09-16-2006, 11:50 PM

I might buy it for that reason......
Generally cheaper labour = lower price for vehicle, not lower quality of product... IMHO.
:)

Way to go Christian! I think in this day and age, this question does nothing but stereotype Mexicans....It shouldn't even be polled....

SaturnManiac

09-17-2006, 02:35 AM

I would. I think mexicans do good quality work....they always seem to take on the tough jobs like lawn care that most Americans refuse to do. I have alot of hispanics friends, so I have much respect for Mexicans. In my opinion, Mexico is really a part of America, just like I feel Canada is.

I agree with the last poster, this question was comes across as racist or stereotypical to me.

wlhawk

09-24-2006, 08:32 PM

I cann't say I would never buy a saturn made in Mexico, but it will be a long time before it would happen. As long as my saturns built in Spring Hill are running, I have no plans to buy anything built outside the USA.:usa:

Charlie

09-25-2006, 03:21 AM

this question does nothing but stereotype Mexicans....It shouldn't even be polled....
You're reading way to much into the original question... it has nothing to do with stereotyping anyone. The intent of the question was to find how Saturn owners and fans felt about Saturns being built outside of the US. At the time, there were strong rumors that the next generation VUE may built in Mexico (there still are those rumors, but nothing has been made official by Saturn). If the rumors suggested China, England, or Spain, the question would have included one of those countries instead.

:yes:

I hope that clears things up,
Charlie

Uzzy

09-25-2006, 08:41 AM

I might buy it for that reason......
Generally cheaper labour = lower price for vehicle, not lower quality of product... IMHO.
:) Well, although that would be nice, in fact it is not at all true. It is known that the Mexican plants have less quality control, and poor managament, compared to most of the North American plants. And building the VUE cheaper is not likely to drop the price one bit. The only reason GM or and automaker has plants there is to increase the profitability of the vehicle.

bryanm326

11-20-2007, 02:18 PM

I've been selling the Saturn Vue since early 2004, and I can tell you that the quality of the 2008 Vue far exceeds that of it's predecessors. I drive these cars every day, just like the 2004, 05, 06 and 07. 08's are far superior and I owned an 06 which I traded in for an 08 the first week they were on our lot.

texan

11-20-2007, 08:41 PM

DesertPuma

11-20-2007, 09:06 PM

Are they still made in the US? I haven't visited the forum much.

Nope. Hecho en Mexico

2NDSOUT

11-20-2007, 09:14 PM

Are they still made in the US? I haven't visited the forum much.

The 08 VUE IS Made in Mexico...

the last production vehicles to roll out of Spring Hill were the 07 VUE and the 07 ION... the last ION rolled out in March 2007 and I believe the last 07 VUE rolled out around the same time.

Spring Hill will not produce anymore Saturns at all. It has been shut down for the next 18 months to build the next Chevy Crossover vehicle.

texan

11-20-2007, 09:21 PM

Nope. Hecho en Mexico

Darn. Why does this complimentary oil and filter change coupon say "Rethink American" if they are made somewhere else? :( Made in the USA was a big factor in my Saturn purchase. I guess I'll have to look elsewhere next time around.

DesertPuma

11-20-2007, 10:58 PM

Darn. Why does this complimentary oil and filter change coupon say "Rethink American" if they are made somewhere else? :( Made in the USA was a big factor in my Saturn purchase. I guess I'll have to look elsewhere next time around.

And the Astras are built in Belgium, go figure. :rolleyes: (But there are some on this board throwing out speculation that they may be built in the USA or Canada some time in the future.)

davidsky

11-21-2007, 09:07 AM

Made in the USA was a big factor in my Saturn purchase. I guess I'll have to look elsewhere next time around.

Ford Escape, Jeep Liberty, Jeep Patriot are made in the US at union shops.

rossao1

11-21-2007, 01:14 PM

Since this thread is over a year old... I will say that the proof is in the numbers! Somebody, please post the sale figures from last year and this year.

I think that fact of the matter is, the vue is a better product than before. It could have some thing to do with the fact that it was a "world designed" product. It had more input, and more of oversight, follow by more comittiment by GM to make it a success.

And Americans will buy the cheapest item that does the job. "WE" are a bargain oriented society. We do not buy "Quality". Else cars would be built to last 100 years not just 10. Just look at RTA furniture is good example of price over quality. How many times will people buy a new computer desk, becuase the last was busted in to many small pieces during the relocation to a new abode?

williamed

11-22-2007, 06:27 PM

Yes ,I have a son in law from Mexico,as my daughter lived for over a year as a volunteer at a Christian orphanage in the Baja from summer 94, to jan 2006.
I would rather buy a car from Mexico than from Europe or Asia.

I think the people in Mexico are closer to us than from the other side of the world . Unfortunatly the competition is getting so severe from other parts of the world that car companies are forced to build where they can still hope to compete.

GM declared another huge loss recently ,and that gets me worried so I hope that they can get back to making some profits and stay in buisness as I like their products.
I like the Outlook , GMC Acadia, and Vue hybrid ,especially as in Canada we can get $3000 in rebates from the Canadian and BC Governments on hybrids.
And then of course there are those GM points on the GM card. It does make it appealing to get a new hybrid.
Just not sure if the hybrids have any problems in winters in BC ???

kevinthenerd

11-26-2007, 06:19 PM

All this "support your country" stuff makes me wonder whether most Americans consider citizens of other countries to be fully human, deserving of the same rights and responsibilities as they are.

I love unions, but The United Auto Workers abused the system. They didn't know how good they had it. People with no education were making far more money than equally skilled people elsewhere in the nation. You can't expect unskilled labor to earn the pay they wanted it to earn. They screwed themselves, and the party is over. Tariffs can only do so much to allow it to continue. We're moving on. GM can't tell its stockholders to "support our country" forever. This isn't a charity. If you think GM should float this nonsense then pay for it yourselves. Make a donation to GM or UAW. Money for high-dollar paychecks and pensions has to come from somewhere.

I love the idea of buying from my fellow countryman, and it was probably my #2 reason for my buying decision, but if the system can't support itself, it won't be supported. (My #1 decision was the business model with which Saturn and Spring Hill operated.)

If there's one product that I believe can get GM out of the can, it would be a new Nova. This market is screaming for a very low cost, simple, rear wheel drive muscle car, targeted to poor teenagers and 20-somethings who can't afford a Mustang or Camaro. Nothing would look more patriotic than quietly designing the engine bay to accept, with almost no effort, a Chevy big block or small block. Make stuff like a radio, a/c, and power steering optional to get the base sticker down and to make more room the engine bay. Let the kids with more money than brains add their sunroof and 18" rims just to help float the line for the few enthusiasts left. Let the base engine be a diminutive ECOTEC to have something to start with, allowing the buyer to save up over time to buy the engine he really wants, but don't offer the bigger engines. It'll be a lot cooler if every big block Nova is custom, and it'll snowball a factory aftermarket better than Scion could ever dream of. (GM, if you're reading this, go ahead and do it. You have my permission as a freely donated idea. If you do it I'll be sure to buy one!)

Idea #2: A new Fiero. Make it mid-engined and longitudinally-mounted. Use a 2.0L turbo ECOTEC. (You might want to cancel the Solstice and Sky if you're worried this will steal the market, but don't make consumers wait too long.) Make sure it can really handle. I mean HANDLE. Don't try to sell it to old people who want a Cadillac suspension; you have Cadillacs for that. Contract it over to Lotus and give them all the time they need to make sure it can HANDLE. (Don't make the mistake you did with the ZR-1!)

GM's biggest asset is their legacy. Nothing is more powerful of a marketing tool as a childhood memory, and GM has made plenty of them. They should be capitalizing more on them. The Camaro should only be a start.

SaturnManiac

11-27-2007, 04:36 AM

I personally don't care, as I consider Mexico a part of America.

But, then I am also not for imports, either.

Anyways, regardless to my personal beliefs, majority of the cars made in the USA, aren't even truly made in the USA. They are ASSEMBLED in the USA, while the parts are shipped in from other countries, so to consider a car made in the USA, I would think you'd have to mean one that was actually made and assembled, not just assembled.

My ex's brother works for some Japanese car company, and I was told majority of the parts were still shipped in from Japan. Not sure which company it was. My ex told me Honda, but I don't know, I don't even think he knew.

One thing I liked about the S-Series, is majority of their parts were actually made here, aside from a few cheap things.

As to supporting your country, that's cool, and I have nothing against it, as a matter of fact, I'm all for it, since I do live in this country, and I'd support whatever country I lived in. I believe in putting food on the table for our own citizens, it makes sense. But, I don't think it's patriotic for my tax dollars to be feeding some crack head's habit, either...but welfare is a whole different subject, LOL.

I have nothing against foreigners, and I'm sure alot of them feel they should support their own countries too. It just makes sense if you pay an American company, the money somehow gets back into America's pockets (thru taxes and such). So, I get the point.

I like American cars, or originally American car brands, that's a choice/preference, whatever you wanna call it. To be honest, I was never big on 4-bangers either, LOL...not until I realized I liked Saturns. I liked Saturns for being assembled in my neighboring state, for being American, and of course, mainly, POLYMER. I do like the new Saturns, but as I've said plenty of times before, polymer was one of the main reasons I found them attractive, I mean I liked the looks too, as a kid we always called them "a car that looks like it's from The Jetsons." However, I would still buy a new one, but that's a while away, there are still plenty of used IONs out there, and I typically buy used, it's a better deal...although I did want one new, because I liked them and thought being the original owner of a car would be cool, LOL. I'm one of the oddballs that likes GM products, but also likes some Fords, yeah, yeah, I get crap about it all the time. And, I still like the Fusion, LOL...and of course, the AURA. I've always liked the VUEs, well until GM decided putting a competitor's motor in it would be "cool" or "acceptable", after that I almost wanted to totally ditch anything GM and move on to Fords. I'm not so irritated about that now, but I would still never buy any VUE with the Honda motor, I would probably buy a VTi one first, and those were crap, nah, I'd just get a Ford Edge :D, but I do love the old VUEs, I honestly liked the rugged look they had better anyways.

But, if I had to buy a new car now, meaning new not used, it's a hard decision for me, I like some of the new Saturns, but I also like some of the new Fords. I would try for a Saturn most likely, probably the VUE or the AURA. Of course, I would probably say ION if 2008 models weren't out.

cheapybob

11-27-2007, 10:11 PM

No.

If I'm going to stoop to where I buy something made elsewhere, there is no point looking at GM vehicles anymore.

Better to buy nothing and drive what I have into the ground.

PaulGraz

12-02-2007, 11:46 AM

GM has been a global company for sometime now - it's only smart for them to get their global parts to work together as a whole. GM still employs plenty of people in the US, even if the UAW is making it impossible to do the final assembly here.

People get all worked up about where a car is "built" - that final assembly is NOT where the biggest economic impact is made. Do you really think that the guys working on the assembly line are earning more money that the engineers, designers, etc?

I got disillusioned with GM/Saturn about 5 years ago, but I like what they are doing to turn the company around now. The co-branding between Saturn and Opel, much like what's planned between Pontiac and Holden, is a step in the right direction...

BoDuke70

01-03-2008, 08:50 AM

As a true muscle fan, I would love a car like the Nova again. Always thought if Dodge came out with a near-copy (updated safetywise, of course) of the '69 Charger, or Chevy with a '57 Bel Air, they'd absolutely clean up. Dodge came close with the Challenger, but it has yet to put wheels to the public pavement, and will be a very limited run niche car. And I won't even get into what they slapped the Charger name on, if it has four doors - it's a Coronet! But I just can't see the volume going out that cars like the original Chevy II Nova had. Guys like us, yeah, all day long. But we as a nation have become accepting of tinny little four bangers...kinda like POWs getting a taste for rice. Less materials and cheaper construction means profit. Guys like DeLorean, Bunkie Knudsen, and other great automotive enthusiasts who helmed major auto companies are no longer around. When you see CEOs up there saying how great their next performance offering is, you gotta take that with a huge grain of salt. If it pleased the shareholders, he'd be up there saying how great the Aveo is.

You'd just be better off getting an old Nova and keeping some true auto enthusiasm alive. Hate to say but you're just hoping for a fiscal impossibility. And as for cars being built in Mexico...well, don't get me started about trade agreements. I'm all for trade isolationism. If not, then ALL countries should have to adhere to strict multi-lateral pollution and emissions regulations, as well as human rights and labor laws. Then instead of cheap labor and insidious waste practices putting us behind from the start, we'd level the field some. Pretty soon, companies might look closer for supply. If a country only consumes, it will be consumed. :us:

texan

01-03-2008, 02:35 PM

People get all worked up about where a car is "built" - that final assembly is NOT where the biggest economic impact is made.

That is a good point. Assembly is just one step in the process. The parts come from all over the world. A lot of foreign brands are assembled here and designed somewhere else. It's hard to judge which is better for our economy.

SaturnManiac

01-03-2008, 05:13 PM

That is a good point. Assembly is just one step in the process. The parts come from all over the world. A lot of foreign brands are assembled here and designed somewhere else. It's hard to judge which is better for our economy.

Exactly someone else finally realizes this besides me, just like I had an ex and his brother worked for Honda, and alot of the parts were still shipped in from Japan, just assembled here.

One of the Ford products, I think the Mustang, had the most American components, this was something I read recently...maybe a few months ago.

But anyways, you also have to take in consideration where the money goes after everything, most likely back to the company wherever it's headquartered, therefore that country would be benefiting more in a way, the bad thing about it is that if a certain country has alot of products in another country, they are more likely to monopolize things and they are going to benefit their economy more. And people wonder why the American economy is going downhill. Another thing about foreign things being here is that they receive tax-breaks that American companies wouldn't otherwise receive...I know this from a friend who is from another country that owns stores over here. I think Americans should receive these same benefits, especially because foreigners get money to help them start businesses, yet it's harder for someone like me to get those. That same friend that owns those stores also received this assistance.

For example, by IBM putting offices overseas and in other places, it has benefited America in a way. They money will come back over here, help their stock market, etc. And when that money comes back over here, they will have to pay taxes on it, which will help the economy. The economy was doing really good during the IBM boom. I think if our American car companies took some of the same practices IBM used, it would do better. A least how IBM was before now...not sure if they are still big on manufacturing and all that here. There was a few other American-based companies that were good examples...we learned about this in economics class.

QKSC2

06-18-2008, 09:32 AM

absolutely not, Vw has a couple models from mexico golf beetle and jetta. and the ones that have come from there break all the time as opposed to the german ones. which is why we are building a manufacturor in SC :D

OnDaGround

07-07-2008, 09:50 AM

hell no... we already got junk from china. We don't need more junk from anywhere else. Cheap Labor = Cheap Product... otherwords P.O.S.

sherwool

07-19-2008, 09:40 PM

In fact, I'm more and more open to the idea of buying a car made in the US by Americans under a foreign label than buying an "American" car made someplace else.

You might care to consider the implications of the fact that assembly is only a rather modest part of what "car companies" do. The design capabilities, R&D they require, marketing and management skills are more important to the future of America than is the final assembly point. While I have my complaints about GM- and I think, as a corporation, they well deserve their current problems- America will be the poorer if the worthwhile assets of GM and Ford are bought up by some Asian or European company. Sadly, I think it is only in the past few years that Detroit has had any interest in making a car that I wanted. Asians and Europeans have been trying to earn my car dollars for decades.

What, pray tell, do you think those horrible Mexicans (sarcasm intended) do with their dollars, anyway- bury them in some Incan monkey god temple? Even though the greenback is still the world's primary trading currency, those dollars generally find their way back to the old ole US of A, in the form of purchases or investment. I regard it as more than a remote possibility that the salvation of the American automobile industry is to make it truly American- as in North American. Trade and capitalism are not zero sum games, as you seem to think.

So yes, I would buy a car assembled in Mexico. I'd prefer that the plant was owned by a domestic manufacturer and that it was designed domestically. My concern would be over manufacturing quality- and if that concern is answered, then I'll be happy to purchase a car assembled in Mexico. I submit it is xenophobic and/or racist to care more about strangers in Detroit than those in Mexico City, Yokohama, or Seoul.