Full-Time AWD Vue

[Ghostrider]

Well, my RDM has finally bit the dust. It has been grumbling, moaning, clicking, growling, etc for the last 10 months and I've just ignored it. I figured that at some point it would just quit and I've have FWD, but intstead it has locked up and I have full time AWD. Now when I take tight corners the Vue pushes instead of tracking tight through the turn. It also clunks twice as the transmission downshifts when I'm coming to a stop. My gas mileage has dropped to 19 mpg around town, and I really would hate to see what it would be on the highway. I'm concerned that the rear diff doesn't have the fluid capacity or the robust design to handle the constant load and braking loads, so I guess I'm going to have to visit the dealer and get a 'new' RDM.

On the positive side the Vue doesn't chirp a tire even under full throttle in the rain. It just scoots!

[IMkenNY]

The rear diff is in the RDM and yes the RDM can overhead and is designed to disengage with extended AWD use even when it is working properly. I would bet catastrophic failure would be in the near future if you continued to operate it in the locked mode .....it would make for some cool pictures.

[JPG]

I'd be affraid that it would lock up completely....I wouldn't want to by in it, driving at 60 and transmission decides to lock up.....Ouch.

[binkybaby]

i sure wouldn't want to be in the rear seat when that happens. The only thing i could think of is that would be the ultimate thing to scare the hell out of a backseat driver. :eek: But seriously, that is something that needs to be looked at! What u talk about is like when i drive the mixer and forget to disengage the power divider and differential locks. All of the wheels r driving and it's hard on the powertrain for extended periods of time.

[Dante]

Ghostrider -- I was recently told by another '04 AWD owner that when he put Royal Purple in his RDM, his moans and groans went away completely. I have already bought 4 bottles of Versatrak and I'm about to change my fluid tomorrow or the next day. I hope my moans go away as well, but I'm not counting on it. When was the last time you had your Rear Differential fluid changed? Ever? How many miles are on that RDM? I think that the RDM fluid gets cooked and gets sludgy and thick and doesn't flow through the sensitive parts in there as well. What I'm getting at is that a simple fluid change MAY help you out. Now that you are stuck in full-time AWD mode, it may be too late, but I'd say that changing the fluid may be a good shot at seeing if it will correct itself before letting the retailer "fix" it by replacing it with the new RDM design. The Versatrak fluid is DAMN expensive, and the Royal Purple is a lot cheaper and fully synthetic. If you're under warranty still, you might discuss this idea with your dealer's service manager. Ask them to check it out, see that it's already fubared, and then say that you want to try dropping in some synthetic fluid and see if it fixes it. If after 50 miles and getting it good and hot a couple times it's still locked, then have them rip it out.... But, if you change the fluid to something *not approved* (i.e. something other than Versatrak fluid), they may try to deny your warranty claim and say the unapproved fluid caused the damage, and then the repair would be on your dime.

Best of luck. I'll let you know if the new fluid helps my RDM stop groaning as soon as I get the fluid changed.

[binkybaby]

i will keep that in mind too, as my Vue is also AWD........

[Ghostrider]

IMkenNY, I wasn't aware that the rear diff and the RDM were in one unit and shared the same fluid. I wasn't worried about the RDM failure, but now I'm definately worried about trash causing a rear diff lock-up. Ignorance is(was) bliss.

Binkybaby, a rear diff lockup would be like slamming on a massive parking brake. Depending on the activity at the time a couple of ruined tires would be the best case scenario. I'm more scared of it dropping a driveshaft and playing pole vault with it. Forget the backseat driver; the frontseat driver is going to have to clean out his britches afterwards if he survives.

Dante, I don't think even holy water will help this thing now. I'm pretty sure from the sounds that have emanated over the months that the damage has been progressive. I would think that since the RDM is engaged by a fluid pump that changing the fluid's viscosity would alter the engagement pattern, but how and why would be left to a fluid dynamics expert. Please let me know how the fluid swap works out.

[Dante]

Yeah, drive-axle pole vaulting would not be pretty. If that happened, HOPEFULLY it would just rip out the rear axle and you'd wind up draggin' tail, literally, but yeah, it could make you flip tail end first. That would be interesting to watch (from a safe distance, that is).

Ghostrider are you out of warranty? If so, changing fluid to fully synthetic Royal Purple probably would be a good first step, but I agree, the damage is probably done. You might be RDM-hunting in a boneyard soon. My RDM fluid change is slated for tomorrow AM. That moaning drives me nuts sometimes. I just try to laugh and not cry when I have to take a tight turn.

[stew32]

Well, my RDM has finally bit the dust.Welcome to the club. I ignored the noises from my first RDM replacement almost the same point. Aside from the loud growling at even the slightest turn, it seemed to be permanently engaged and would "push" in turns. Steering effort in parking lot manuevers increased to about the same a compact car w/o power steering.

I've had the new version of the RDM installed in my Vue for about 8 months. The decreased engagement definitely took some getting used to- especially after driving in your Vue's current condition. However, it does get better over time. My driving habits haven't really changed and I'm no longer having nearly the same amount of excessive wheel spin as when it was first installed. I do get an occassional chirp (turn from a stop) and it has more torque steer than I remember when new. It was pretty annoying for the first 5 months or so, but now I don't really notice it.

[Dante]

Well, I can say that after replacing the RDM fluid with Versatrak and driving a mile or so, the noise is a lot less noticeable, but it's still there. To get the RDM good and heated up (as instructed in the manual), I went up to the elementary school about a half mile from the house, and drove in circles (both directions) for a few minutes. Man I was about ready to toss my cookies after that! LOL

I took her home, drained the fluid and refilled with fresh Versatrak. I don't think I got it all drained out (I had to jack the rear end way up since I was facing the wrong direction on the hill on the driveway, silly me), but I got most of it. I put about 21 oz in (it recommends 25.8 oz to begin with, but after 21 oz it started oozing out the fill hole). I am about to take a road trip to TN and back, so we'll see how it works in after a few hundred miles.

The fluid that came out was surprisingly clear, looked like light colored honey. The gear oil in the power transfer case was also very clear. The transmission fluid, on the other hand, was pretty dark, and there was a LOT of metal shavings on the magnet on the drain plug. Pretty scary!

[Ghostrider]

Thanks for the info Dante. I've already made an appointment to have the rear suspension recall and the RDM replacement done on Wednesday. How many miles do you have on your transmission? I may have them flush mine as a precaution while it's in the shop. I've only got 19K miles on it, and have the 5/60 warranty, but I don't want to replace the transmission until 59K miles. :D

[Ghostrider]

Well, all went well at the dealer, and my Vue is back to silent cruising. The only problem is now I've essentially got a FWD Vue. I have a ton of torque-steer now, and short of abusing the Vue, I can't get the AWD to engage on dry pavement...it basically just spins the tires until it gains enough speed to get traction. It was much more fun to drive with full time AWD, you really just pointed it where you wanted to go and hammered the gas. Now it's back to feathering the throttle, adjusting for torque-steer, and getting used to terminal understeer while at WOT. I guess it's back to life as a mere mortal. :hothead:

[Dante]

Well, all went well at the dealer, and my Vue is back to silent cruising. The only problem is now I've essentially got a FWD Vue. I have a ton of torque-steer now, and short of abusing the Vue, I can't get the AWD to engage on dry pavement...it basically just spins the tires until it gains enough speed to get traction. It was much more fun to drive with full time AWD, you really just pointed it where you wanted to go and hammered the gas. Now it's back to feathering the throttle, adjusting for torque-steer, and getting used to terminal understeer while at WOT. I guess it's back to life as a mere mortal. :hothead:


YUK! Man, that sucks. After driving about a thousand miles from Dallas to Memphis, my RDM is now TOTALLY SILENT after putting in the new Versatrak fluid. It still seems to work as it always has as well, so Saturn has been killing themselves by replacing the damn things when all they need is frequent fluid changes.

I've got just shy of 27k on mine now, and when I get home I'm changing another 4 qts of tranny fluid (did it on July 4th before leaving for this trip), along with oil and a tire rotation. I think I'm going to start changing transmission fluid (4 qts for a drain/refill) every 9k miles (3 oil changes), and I think I'll change the RDM fluid as soon as I notice that it's moaning again, even just a little bit. Hopefully that will keep it in good shape.

Btw, I've heard that when you get the new RDM, it takes a while to break it in, so don't romp on it too much for the first few hundred miles. The clutch pack should loosen up after getting up to temp a few dozen times and start working better. If after like 500 miles you still have NO AWD, then I'd take it back to the dealership and "discuss" it with them calmly but firmly. :hmpf:

[saturnvue549]

Hey guys. I have an '05 AWD V6 and have read the posts about the RDM issues. Would this problem have been fixed for a January '05 built VUE? If not, what should I be listening for? I have noticed that when I get out of the VUE after driving it a while I can hear a few pings from under the car and so far I just attribute it to the engine cooling down.

[Ghostrider]

Hey guys. I have an '05 AWD V6 and have read the posts about the RDM issues. Would this problem have been fixed for a January '05 built VUE? If not, what should I be listening for? I have noticed that when I get out of the VUE after driving it a while I can hear a few pings from under the car and so far I just attribute it to the engine cooling down.The 05's don't seem to have the problem; I think they get the 'recalibrated' RDM from the factory. The earliest signs of the problem are a 'wahh-wahh' sound similar to noisy off-road tires that only shows up when making tight turns. It will get progressively worse until you have growling, howling etc even in moderate turns.

I actually got the AWD to engage this afternoon, but it took a wet road and a very heavy foot. I took it to a deserted new neightborhood development and basically just floored it. I spun both tires completely across the intersection with a very wiggly steering wheel before it finally engaged. It was quite sudden with a muted but distint thump and a lurch. This can't be good for the u-joints and other components. If it doesn't get better soon it's going back to the dealer. :hothead:

[Dante]

Resurrection dead threads is fun. :)

So, now that it's getting later in the year, and we're starting to have more rain, and in some places, occassional snow and slush, I thought I'd ask, how's your RDM working out for you? I haven't really had a chance to use mine yet, it has still yet to rain more than once since... like 2003. :P

[Ghostrider]

It's almost Halloween...time for the dead to arise!!!

I'll just put it bluntly...the post-RDM AWD sucks! Massive torque-steer, tire-spin, and understeer. When it was new I could just nail the gas and go on dry pavement. Now the tires spin until they gain traction, and there is still massive torque steer to the top of first gear since only the front wheels are pulling. On wet pavement, it's hit-and-miss. I don't have any confidence that I can pull out in traffic because it engages much too late to help traction off the line. Most of the time self-preservation and my experienced right foot find the right balance between tire spin/traction, and the AWD never decides to participate. I haven't driven the Vue in snow or on sand, so I've not had a chance to keep the tires spinning for more than just a few seconds. Maybe it's fine for winter, but for all-weather driving it's pretty much useless. :hothead:

[stew32]

It will improve after a few months. Not anywhere near the full time AWD with a failing RDM, but it does get better. Also make sure you rotate your tires- all the power going to the front will noticably increase tire wear. I only have about 1/2 to 3/4 as much tread on the front as I do on the back.

[bigc791]

Ghost rider is yours an 04 3.5L? If so call the dealer and see if the campaign was done. A ton of them were recalled but only with the 3.5 engine
Carmen

[Dante]

That's a bummer. Supposedly, the more miles you put on the new RDM, the better it gets, but I chalk that one up to drivers simply getting used to having a non-functioning RDM. If you're still under warranty, I'd drain the oil out of the RDM and try replacing it with 1st brand new Versatrak fluid. Put a few thousand miles on that, and test it as frequently as you can (gravel roads are your friend). If it still doesn't improve, screw it, put something thicker in there and repeat the process. If it gets worse, try something thinner, like fork oil for motorcycles (search for Red Line oil). If you destroy the RDM, they probably will never have a clue as to why. LOL

[Jldet5]

It's almost Halloween...time for the dead to arise!!!

I'll just put it bluntly...the post-RDM AWD sucks! Massive torque-steer, tire-spin, and understeer. When it was new I could just nail the gas and go on dry pavement. Now the tires spin until they gain traction, and there is still massive torque steer to the top of first gear since only the front wheels are pulling. On wet pavement, it's hit-and-miss. I don't have any confidence that I can pull out in traffic because it engages much too late to help traction off the line. Most of the time self-preservation and my experienced right foot find the right balance between tire spin/traction, and the AWD never decides to participate. I haven't driven the Vue in snow or on sand, so I've not had a chance to keep the tires spinning for more than just a few seconds. Maybe it's fine for winter, but for all-weather driving it's pretty much useless. :hothead:

Yep; and I'm sorry to say it does not get better.

Sucked so bad I put a used RDM back in. Using Royal Purple and plan on changing yearly after summer. I had some serious RDM grind during the summer heat. RDM is back to it's noisey wah wah wub wub but love to make all 4 go.

[alank]

I think that the new RDM is just something to connect the rear drive shaft to. It is totally useless, mine never engages the fronts just spin. I do plan on calling the dealer about it as I have some other issues that have to be taken care of. As to them getting better with age, I disagree with that statement because mine is about 6 months old and only got worse. When it was first replaced it would engage after about 2 to 3 seconds of front wheel spin then disengage leaving the front wheels spin again. I miss my Astro Van which had a terrific AWD system with a limited slip rear but I don't miss getting 13 to 14 mpg.

[mikebutkus]

When I first got the "new" RDM and was first to post that it was bad, real bad, it has gotten better over the months. I do have it kick in a lot in the rain and even dry surfaces in my hilly NJ county. It's still not like the original RMD. The first few weeks it would really make the front wheel spin. Now it locks in but I don't like the wheel spin. I did take it back the first week after the "upgrade" and they said they "did nothing to it" but tested it. After I dropped it off it at least kicked in.

[alank]

When I first got the "new" RDM and was first to post that it was bad, real bad, it has gotten better over the months. I do have it kick in a lot in the rain and even dry surfaces in my hilly NJ county. It's still not like the original RMD. The first few weeks it would really make the front wheel spin. Now it locks in but I don't like the wheel spin. I did take it back the first week after the "upgrade" and they said they "did nothing to it" but tested it. After I dropped it off it at least kicked in.
Mike are you saying that you think that they did something to you RDM after you took it back to make it somewhat better. Maybe there is some hope to improve mine also, all though I know that it will never be the same as the original. Thanks for your reply.

[Jldet5]

Mike are you saying that you think that they did something to you RDM after you took it back to make it somewhat better. Maybe there is some hope to improve mine also, all though I know that it will never be the same as the original. Thanks for your reply.

I have an old version RDM and a new version RDM zip locked and sitting in my garage. You can not tell the difference between the two except I labeled them. The changes are all internal and there is nothing you can do to them. They simply slip onto a spindle and are secured with a very large nut. No adjustment. I did this all myself using the GM manual.

Your only options are go back to an old version RDM, change the fluid often, cross your fingers or get stickier tires. Part of the reason I'm seriously considering the Hankook tires.

[Ghostrider]

I have an old version RDM and a new version RDM zip locked and sitting in my garage. You can not tell the difference between the two except I labeled them. The changes are all internal and there is nothing you can do to them. They simply slip onto a spindle and are secured with a very large nut. No adjustment. I did this all myself using the GM manual.

Your only options are go back to an old version RDM, change the fluid often, cross your fingers or get stickier tires. Part of the reason I'm seriously considering the Hankook tires.I'm going to need those sticky tires a lot sooner now than if I'd stayed with the original RDM. Before, my tires were wearing pretty evenly. Now, the fronts are wearing much faster. One thing the sticky tires won't help is the severe throttle understeer. For example, with the original RDM I could floor it going up a circular merge ramp, and it would just hold the line. Now the front end plows out, and cranking the steering wheel over only produces high slip angles and squirrely handling as the ramp levels out. It is now FWD with an open diff, and that drastically changes the balance of the Vue. I've always enjoyed using the throttle to balance a vehicle while cornering, but now its a choice of understeer, or more understeer. The fun-to-drive factor has been cut in half for me. :( It is still good, solid, economical transportation, but it won't stay around long now-- Especially since other manufacturers are coming out with more powerful and equally economic AWD SUVs next year.

[Jldet5]

One thing the sticky tires won't help is the severe throttle understeer. For example, with the original RDM I could floor it going up a circular merge ramp, and it would just hold the line. Now the front end plows out, and cranking the steering wheel over only produces high slip angles and squirrely handling as the ramp levels out. It is now FWD with an open diff, and that drastically changes the balance of the Vue. I've always enjoyed using the throttle to balance a vehicle while cornering, but now its a choice of understeer, or more understeer. The fun-to-drive factor has been cut in half for me. :( It is still good, solid, economical transportation, but it won't stay around long now-- Especially since other manufacturers are coming out with more powerful and equally economic AWD SUVs next year.

Totally Agree. Thats why I went with the old RDM which is probably getting harder to find.

You really like to push that VUE :yes: I can't believe they put such a poor performing AWD system in the VUE. It's only weak spot as far as I'm concerned.

GM just sold off its share of Subaru to Toyota I think. Supposedly this gives Toyota a leg up on AWD. If so, where was GM when they owned part of Subaru? Anyways, it would have been perfect if GM had come out with a stroner AWD on the VUE. :usa:

[mikebutkus]

When I brought my '04 AWD back after a week of spinning tires they had it for 4 or 5 hours. When I got it back, after a few days it rained and at least the rear kicked in. Now it kicks in, but no-where as good as it did before they "fixed it". Maybe it just took time. According to the test they just put it on a lift, clicked the rear brakes a few notches, and kicked up the speed to 20mph and waited to see if the rears tried to turn. I looked to see if they did any repairs. Couldn't tell, nothing on the repair receipt but "tested and works as specified." Saturn dealer said it's working right and nothing they could do about it. I wasn't happy about that, liked the way it drove before. No Wah-Wah now... at 37K no problems but would like less spin. Getting Cooper 235/60-17 tires soon. I kick in the rears at least 2 times a week.