V6 Performance

[GreenEggsAndHam]

If the V6 has DOHC, why is it only pushing out 182hp? I think it should be around at least 230. Also, I think the SC2 deserves a V6, don't you?

[Jon94SoLo2]

You're preaching to the choir, bro!

[JPRex]

Ditto.

[Jeff]

Guys, manufacturer's horsepower ratings are merely advertising tools. That is the only explanation I have for the 182 hp LS2 being faster, 0-60 and quarter mile, than a supposedly 222 hp Nissan Maxima (automatic trans.). Consider also the 215 hp Oldsmobile Intrigue being as fast as the supposedly 250 or so hp Chrysler 300M. The real question isn't why does it only have 182 hp, but does this car have good performance? The answer to that is yes.
jeff

[chris00sw2]

The performance numbers tell a better story than the raw hp numbers. Remember, performance is based on a variety of facrors, including hp, torque, curb weight, gearing, etc. I'm sure the LS2 is lighter than some of its competition due to the polymer panels, so it doesn't need as much power to get the same performance numbers.

From personal experience, I had a 97 Cavalier before my SW2. The Cavalier was a base model with the 120hp motor. The SW2 has 124hp, but it feels much zippier than the Cavalier ever did because the SW2 is about 400lb lighter than the Cavalier. This is probably not the only factor, but it is a big one. It was amazing how the dynamics of the SW2 changed one day as I was bringing home several bags of rocks from Home Depot! <img src="http://64.77.2.166/cgi-bin/UltraBoard/Images/Wilk.gif" border="0" align="middle">

[VTHokie00SL2]

True, the LS2 gets similar performance numbers compared to the competition with less hp. Still, wouldn't it be better to get better performance numbers with equal hp?!

[RS_LS2_2000]

FyI From what I've heard the LS2 Has the same engine as one of the Cadillacs models which is also used with a Turbo in one of the Saabs.
This engine in both other cars produces over 200hp. The reason the LS2 doesn't is because of Saturn's low maitanence philosophy, Saturn "Detuned"
these engines in order to get them to run on Regular Unleaded Gas! Whether or not this impacts those of us with an eye on performance, I think
we can all overlook this 18hp loss given how much we have to pay for gas now! Regardless of performance ratings I am one happy LS2 owner.

[joeybagodonuts]

dont forget guys, not in the too distant past 182 h.p. was allot!
when mustang g.t.s first came out they were 185, then 215, then 245, etc
my volvo s-90 which is a 37k car but simalar in size and dimensions to your ls's is only 175 h.p. yet the car is capable of speeds over 130
im not a fan of the opels, but from what i hear and see the l's has plenty of performance for what it is.
as far as whupping the maxima.... i dunno, maybe in a magazine test but in the real world the new max hauls ass, id have to see it at the track with my own two eyes to beleive it.

[Jeff]

Re. the LS2 being faster than the Maxima. I got that info from the Edmunds.com family sedan comparison test they did a few months back. The LS2 handily beat all challengers, including the Maxima and God's gift to man the Passat (sense sarcasm please), in the acceleration tests. The LS2 finished near the bottom of the pack overall, but if you read the article the standard Edmunds bias against Saturn is painfully obvious.

[spencerb]

The car mags as nit-picky enough as it is. If the LS2 required premium fuel, what a hayday they would have! They criticize the luxury performance cars for it; Saturn would be totally bashed.

I've driven an auto and manual LS1; the auto LS1 was underpowered, the manual was average. I'm used to my Accord (auto), which has the most realized power of a four cylinder sedan that I've driven. The worst I believe is the Camry. Push gas, wait, then it goes.

I would like to drive the V6 LS2. I'm sure it's powerful enough for the masses!

[Saturnmeister]

The key (in the LS2 vs. Maxima comparison) is that the contest is automatic vs. automatic; the 5 SPEED Maxima is quicker (assuming a competent driver), but the automatic can't take advantage of the Nissan's tuned-for-screaming-revs engine, and ends up damn near a half second slower 0-60 (I forget the 1/4 difference, but the Saturn wins both). In fact, the new Maxima with an automatic is about a dead heat with my LW2 STATION WAGON (grin)...

[Saturnmeister]

...and since most of the people who buy Maximas will probably be getting them with automatics, that means they'll always find themselves being embarrassed by me in my STATION WAGON...when they see that they can't get ahead of me with their "sport sedan"

222 hp? Meaningless! Wait - I take that back! It probably means they have to buy "premium" fuel at much higher prices!


he he he!

[SpeedPlayer 97sl2]

Anybody know the torque curve the for L-series V6? Torque/hp graph perhaps? Anybody put their LS2/LW2 on a dynometer? I think that information would be interesting, especially if put in comparison to the V6 in the Camry, Accord, and Maxima. All superb engines, but it'd be nice to know how differently they're tuned.

[traveler]

Horsepower, shmorshpower. All I can tell you is that my LS-2 whups Camry's and Avalons, Nissans and others. I laughed when I took it on it's first long business trip back East and left V-6 Camry's (which have over 200HP) in the dust at the toll booths. It is a nice feeling to know that it's there is you want or need it. It was also refreshing to zip up I-70 through the Eisenhower tunnel West of Denver when nearly every other vehicle was wheezing up that grade. I was doing 80mph and the car just wanted more. I don't need numbers to convince me of the guts it has. It has already proved itself to me. Besides I love just pumping regular gas in and still getting at least 30mpg on the open highway.

[JPRex]

If I'm not mistaken, quick acceleration relies more or less on torque and it's curve. Cars with less hp can skoot out the starting blocks faster if their torque numbers are good. Both my 91 SL and 94 SC1 took off faster than similarly classed cars with more hp.

I know I guilty of demanding more hp, but performance is the key issue. I image trying to produce a high performance vehicle while restraining consumer costs and improving repair-ability is very difficult.

[GoKyu L300]

Would love to have all this extra hp that y'all are talking about, but I dunno (until the new prices come out) if I'd be able to afford the L-300 (LS2) or not...I guess the poor little 4 cyl 137 hp auto engine will still get its ass kicked by the competition...*sigh*

-Bryan

[lgra]

Horsepower is just another number. What the horsepower is at various RPMs is real data. I do not have the offical torque and horsepower curves for the 182 hp version of the 3.0 liter V6, but it has good numbers in the RPM ranges of normal driving. Most of the time these advertised horsepower numbers are at RPMs no sane person would drive at, like, when was the last time you drove a Maxima down the interstate at 5400 RPM? Also, do not discount the L Series 4 cyl. It has good numbers for hp and torque in the RPMs used in real world driving.
For the 'tuners out there, I know that certain Ford engines can be "hopped up" by reprogramming the engine management computer via the OBDII port, and the tools (and programs)to do this are on the market. This also may be a posibility in the Saturn line, but of course this would blow your Saturn warranty right out the window.

[Jeff]

Here's the lowdown on torque. It is pretty much determined by 3 things: First is engine displacement. The higher it is, the higher your torque, as a general rule. For instance, the Civic's 1.6l engine makes about 111 lb-ft. The Saturn 1.9l makes 122. So that's one. Second is compression/boost. A higher compression ratio or the use of a turbo or supercharger will increase torque throughout the rpm range. Last is the valve timing. In a car like a Saturn, where the valve timing is fixed, the engine has a limited range of rpm's to produce useful power within. They can tune it to get good low end, try to get good power in the middle band, or make it continue to pull at high rpm's. Now something like a Civic EX with vtec alters the valve timing as the rpm's change. This gives engines with variable valve timing the advantage of a more broad torque curve, and with this comes the ability to run a very high redline. So while something like vtec will not necessarily increase the peak torque produced, it will increase the level throughout the rpm range, and by increasing the ability to run at high rpm's will likely result in a higher peak horsepower number.
That said, take a look at some competitors engines. The Camry, Accord, and Maxima all have 3.0l V6 engines. As does the LS2 (no coincidence). So the displacement is the same. We know that the Accord has vtec, I don't know about the Camry or Maxima. I believe that the others all run on premium, indicating a higher compression ratio. So seemingly, the torque curves ought to be a bit higher for the others over the LS2, with some advantage to the vtec Accord. It's not like the other cars have crazy, low displacement, high reving engines or something. They're very similar to the Saturn. So I stand by my statement that while I'm sure they've measured those published hp and torque numbers somehow, they really can't be relied on to tell you how the car is gonna move. Only your butt in the driver's seat can do that.
jeff

[DonfromNaples]

what i am waiting to hear is the announcement from saturn that the 4 in the LS1 is going into the next generation S Series Saturn. 137 hp will help. Displacement is greater, so I would bet torque is greater too. Saturn are you listening?

[100KSW2]

The LS2 V6 may have less HP than the Camry, Accord and Maxima V6s, but it beats the Camry and the Accord 0-60, and has a fully independant rear suspension, unlike the beam axle Maxima-pretender-sports-sedan. All of these are fairly nice cars, but the Saturn is more fun to drive than the appliance-like Camry and a real steal compared to ANY of the above, AND cheaper to insure because of the lower HP number.

Also, please note that my 7 year old SW2 has traction control - still unavailable on Camry and Accord (you have to buy an Avalon/Lexus/Acura if you want traction control from those guys). Ditto for getting treated well in the sales and service area. Most Toyota and Honda dealers are arrogant and get bad marks. You want to be treated fairly then you must move up to Lexus/Acura.

If you want a V6 from Saturn you can buy an LS2 with just the V6 (base). If you want a V6 from Toyota or Honda you will have to buy the most expensive model and also pay for a bunch of other stuff like sunroof/leather/option packages which you don't have any choice about.

So don't forget to consider the WHOLE package when you start making comparisons.

[FunkyLamb]

I've had several Camry and Maximas pull up next to me expecting to burn me off the line at lights around town and EVERY time, my LS2 has taken off like a bullet. I'm still trying to get used to the power coming from a '95 SL2.

[SoCalSaturnsGuzzis]

My two cents worth on this thread. My wife and I just traded in a '97 VW Passat VR6 on a 2001 LW300. The VR6 had a Neuspeed chip, P-flo filters, and slotted brake rotors. With only 2000 miles on the LW300 so far, my initial impressions of that car are terrific. It's got a LOT more mid-range than the VW, and even with the 4-speed automatic is an absolute hoot to drive. The power of the LW300 is much more suited to American-driving styles, not autobahn stuff like the VW. I liked driving it so much I went out and got a low-mileage(46K)'94 SW2 with a 5-speed and 4-wheel discs/ABS for me! The LW300 is a solid, stable, good-handling car. And that V6/auto combination is a blast! But I'll leave that car alone, and concentrate on some goodies for my SW2 (cold air intake, hub spacers, springs, etc).

[100KSW2]

SoCalSaturnsGuzzis

Welcome to SaturnFans and please let me direct you to the Wagon thread in the General forum where you will meet some like minded folks (even some who also own multiple Saturn wagons!) and you can see some pictures of SW2 hotrods too!

Jim

[NEWLW300OWNR]

Someone mentioned that the V6 in the Camry is only available in the most expensive model, but after looking at the Kelly Blue Book website, this doesn't appear to be true. According to the site, a Camry LE V6 5 speed with standard 4 disc abs is available. Add these options: power seat, moonroof, radio upgrade, indash cd changer, side air bags, nice alloy wheels and few other things (cargo net, floor mats) and the car would invoice for $22798.00. With a reasonable profit to a dealer, this compares very favorable to a L300. I wouldn't be surprised to see Toyota offering a wagon on their next Camry, which is the main reason I got the LW300. I bet finding a Camry equipped this way would be virtually impossible unless it was ordered specially.

[JasonD]

Well as for the V6 Saturns, I want one.

But as for the Camary LE and V6 issue. You can get the Camary in a lower trim level with the V6, my mom got one. Of course now she wishes she bought the upper trim level LE. She got the Camary before the L's came out, but she decided against the Accord because the sales guys were pricks.

Ahhh...I just want one of those white European Touring Edition LW3's, even though they are not in production, I can still dream.

[Tenchi Masaki]

0 to 60 MPH is just over 7 seconds. Fastest in its class. Beats the Accord and Maxima! <img src="http://www.saturnfans.com/cgi-bin/UltraBoard/Images/Happy.gif" border="0" align="middle">
<!--http--><a href="http://www.edmunds.com/roadtests/comparison/2000/familysedan/performance.html" target="_blank">Edmunds</a><!--url-->

[Yankeez01L30094SL2]

The L300 is one heck of a sleeper. I just can't help myself anymore. I'm even letting other cars get the jump at the light and then blowing thier doors off. This engine is very responsive in any driving situation and the revs climb very fast.

[L300_in_MO]

Ditto Yankee,
It's nice to be able to able to dust those other sedans on the road, but more importantly, the acceleration is there when you need it to get around those road-hogging a**hole 18-wheelers on the interstate.

[Yankeez01L30094SL2]

That and leaving those CIVIC "Type R's" thumping in the lane next to me, in the dust.

[SATURN-V]

A good discussion on the difference and meaning of horsepower and torque:

http://people.clemson.edu/~btoy/terminal.html

One reason the Saturn LS V-6 is faster then other car in its class that have higher peak horsepower is peak horsepower tells only part of the story engine output. Peak horsepower occurs only at full throttle and at one engine speed, not a real world driving condition. As everyone knows an accelerating car goes through a range of engine speeds as it speeds up, then drops engine speed after a shift and goes through changing engine speeds again. The important number is the AVEAGE engine output through that ENTIRE range of engine speeds. That is the number that determines performance, not peak horsepower. Average engine output can be measured by calculating the area under the torque curve, between the rpm range you really drive at.

Many car manufactures design engines that produce high peak horsepower, at an engine speed that is well out of the range most people drive in (like the 222 hp Nissan Maximum or the 160 Toyota Celcia engines.) To get this high peak horsepower, they sacrifice good engine output in the usable rpm range. Of course they do this so they can advertise their cars as being "better" then a competitor with less peak horsepower, and so owners can say "My car has more horsepower then your car." Saturn has always designed engines (the LS V-6 included) to provide maximum average torque between 3000 and 5500 +/- rpm, the range of most driving. This is why the V6 LS is faster then many other cars with uninformed, braggart owners.

[SoCalSaturnsGuzzis]

I was driving the wife's LW300 yesterday, with the wife and daughters along, when a Honda Civic hatchback came merging onto the freeway. The car was lowered, probably 16" rims, big exhaust tip, and the driver had a big hoop earring, shaved head, etc. He was darting in and out of traffic, anything to get that one car length ahead of everyone else. So we get off the freeway and make our lane choices, then come up to a stoplight that merged into one lane after it. Low and behold, who should pull up beside me than Mr. Rice Rocket! So I'm watching the light, getting ready for it to turn green. Mr. Rice Rocket is sitting in his Civic, his stereo thumping along. The light turns green, I let the LW300 get a good rolling start while Mr. Civic is gassing/clutching, then press the pedal and pull away from him with ease. Too bad he didn't have his girlfriend or his homies along with him! He'd have some explaining to do as to why he got his doors blown off by a station wagon...!

[madman]

A 3.0 L300 massaged with higher compression pistons, ported head, extruded honed intake manifold, etc. would definately move....some ultra high performance tires mated with other suspension work and youll have BMW m5 owners getting a little shaky.

[BAMCSE2]

I love the new 3.0L V6 - And I'm all for performance enhancements - but MADMAN...and M5...are you SICK?




<blockquote><hr><font size="1">Original Post:</font><!--1-->
Madman: A 3.0 L300 massaged with higher compression pistons, ported head, extruded honed intake manifold, etc. would definately move....some ultra high performance tires mated with other suspension work and youll have BMW m5 owners getting a little shaky.<hr></blockquote>

[madman]

remember that the 3.0L motor runs 9.3:1 compression(or maybe its 9.2:1?) imagine that motor with 11.5:1 compression, cylinders bored to 3.2, camwork, etc. Youre looking a close to 300hp.
Oh, I meant M3 not M5...my mistake.