Does the New Labor Contract Change Your Opinion of Saturn?

[Charlie]

Does the new labor contract (http://www.saturnfans.com/Company/2004/contractdismantled.shtml) change your opinion of Saturn? Post your thoughts.

Thanks!
Charlie

[silverblueL200]

Not really, if it keeps all the factory workers in a job, its fine with me. As long as the quality doesn't drop off from the Springhill factory.

[edwilson13185]

It doesn't change my opinion, in fact it reinforces my opinion that Saturn is now just another General Motors division. It seems like GM coerced the employees into signing it.

[wlhawk]

It shows that Saturn is becoming more GM with each change. I want to think quality will not suffer, but it probably will.

[SW2Muck]

Thats my concern as well. Will quality suffer because of it. Saturn has been one of the few GM makes in the past few years to have well-made cars. Compare an ION or S-Series to a Cavalier, you'll see and feel the difference. Staying within GM, while Chevy is improving, the only one who comes close quality-wise is Buick, and I don't see myself driving one of those anytime soon.
But the other thing in that article that concerned me was, how theres going to be a new body shop for Spring Hill. So, does this mean, they finally put the nail in the coffin for polymer panels? I personally blame the media for that one. I'd rather have bigger gaps than have big patches of rust. Not all of us live in California! Having a tough car that is practical and economical and can survive winters and the abuse that I dole on it, is very important to me, as well as others.

[XtremeGrandAm]

I dont think quality can suffer any more than it has in the past. GM's quality is getting better with its new vehicles and thats not in one divison its in them all pontiac,chevy, GMC. Still up to par with honda and toyota as far as interior quality no....but an improvment over the last generation vehicles yes.

As written in the article saturns contract had a no layoff policy with the new policy layoffs are inveitable it says. I dont see how this is positive......

[Citation84]

Looks as if GM made some vague "promises". I hope Saturn got them in writing, because they sound as if there is plenty of room to get out of anything they pledged to do. I wouldn't trust them for 5 minutes much less the length of a UAW contract.
Sounds like Saturn is trying to put the best face on it. But I am very suspicious.

[John10]

Yes it does change my opinion of Saturn. It does not necessarily mean I will be any more or less likely to buy Saturn cars but it certainly signals the end of what I considered to be an innovative and positive chapter in labor management relations. I believe that if corporations and unions cooperated more in the way envisioned in the original Saturn arrangement, American manufacturing would have been better for it and in turn our entire nation would be stronger. All I can say from a consumer's perspective to both GM and the UAW is that this better result in a higher quality Saturn vehicle, because you've just forfeited any moral or entreprenureal edge Saturn might have had. :no:

[midlifecrisis]

Looks like Michael Moore has fodder for a new documentary.

[Fitter Roger]

I will offer my .02 cents; as a non Saturn, GM worker.

I submit to you that it isn't the death of Saturn, but the welcome into the fold of GM. In other words, so many of Saturns ideas are used at my plant that GM has become Saturn. The tail has wagged the dog here. GM has also learned from the NUMMI plant too. It is about time that GM gives Saturn it's day, let them have the money needed to improve itself.

That being said let me back up my positon by saying I own 2 Saturns a 2001 SC2 and a 2003 VUE. The SC2 was a great car for it's time. BUT the VUE is just a warmed over second thought on how to build a SUV in a car factory. The VUE need about twice the amount of development money spent on it. The gauge cluster in a 2001-03 VUE is the same as the SC2. Time for GM to give Saturn some $$$$ and platforms to work on. Remember that GM had no problem taking the VUE platforn for a Chevy.

Most of the quality issues today are not the results of the labor used to build a car. Quality is a result of design, engineering and perception of the car. Most of you were not around in the 60's and 70's when cars were at the mercy of the labor used to build the car. Just remember that NO CAR, SUV, or TRUCK leaves the factory without GM's approval. Defects in assembly are tracked down to the tool and operator that caused the problem.

Most of you are not aware that GM no longer makes it's own seats and interior plastic. It is outsourced to places like Leer Seating and Johnson Controls. That being said, it is possible to get a GM/Saturn seat made by Lear in the same plant making seats for Toyota. Most of Johnson Controls is used by Ford. So much for better quality, the difference is in the specs of the seat.

As far as the no layoffs deal, hard to comment on it without reading the contract. They may get the same deal of using State of TN un employment compensation and GM SUB make up pay. So I really can't comment on it.

Roger D

I could go on for days on Quality issues and my plant's experience.

[spankie]

now they are just another gm mess.they should have developed the company better.i have a 2003 l300 and it is a great car as far as i'm concerned.they knocked 1 mile per gallon off on 2004,so this tells you where ther going.too bad looks like the death of another brand in the long run

[Polarbear 957]

It is really unfortunate that the "Heavy Hand of GM" has finally fallen on Saturn. No more will we see innovative and fresh ideas from this company. Now, all we will see are the Chevy ION.......or maybe a Saturn Cobalt, it really won't matter anymore! It's Cavalier/Sunbird/Sunfire all over again!

My Wife and I really enjoy our '03 ION 3. It doesn't look like anything else on the road, I'm glad we didn't wait until '05 when all we would have to look at is the new CobION!!

1st they sold out to GM, then they finalized it by eliminating the best working contract ever made in the auto industry...


Time for a new ad campaign:

At Saturn, we put GM 1st!!

[MydnightMyst]

Nope, but it does reinforce my opinion of GM. They cry wolf (Wahh wahhh, boo-hoo, we're losing tons of money, so you either agree to what we want or we're gonna shut the place down) so much it's not funny. Being a IUE, GM, employee, it doesn't surprise me and I will forever support my union brothers and sisters, but I loathe GM management with a passion. I wish they'd get their heads outta their behinds, wake up and smell the coffee, and quit being worried over whether or not they can afford that summer home in Barcelona... Whatever. THEY should take a darned paycut once in a while. While they are getting HUGE bonuses, pay raises, and plenty of stock options, we're still getting stepped on AND people who do not work in this situation bark at us and say WE are overpaid. Balogna. No one is more overpaid than a member of GM's "upper crust"...
Ohhhh, don't get me started on GM and contracts.. Oops. Already did, so I will quit that... hehehe
Anyway, my opinion of Saturn will remain the same. They'll still manufacture great cars. A contract changes nothing more than the way they got paid, benefits, and so on. As long as the employees are happy or at least OK with their new contract, and Saturns keep getting built by AMERICAN citizens, as a quality product, I AM VERY HAPPY.. :D

[MaxSL2]

GM's subtle threat of closing Spring Hill is a perfect example of crying wolf. It would make no sense to close like their 2nd or 3rd newest facility, designed around modern, clean, efficient lean production, over others that are decades older in locales with higher operating and living costs. It might have become yet another truck plant or somthing, but I am sure it's future was somewhere in GM's planning.

Also, call me naive, but I still feel that employees who truly see thenselves as true stakeholders in the organization, i.e. Saturn before '98 or so, will work harder to produce better products.

At least its good that the labor issues of today do not involve screwdrivers or coke bottles "accidently" left in brand new doors if anything else;)

[Galileo]

While the original Saturn "experiment" is a big part of the reason I first purchased a Saturn, I've been very happy as an owner of the vehicle itself. I wouldn't be on my third Saturn if the vehicle didn't satisfy my needs... no matter how much I believed in the company. It is disappointing that the much lauded labor agreement has been dismantled but I think GM has taken notice to what did work at Spring Hill and has made efforts to implement those successes throughout other GM factories. Yes, it seems that Saturn is falling further into the GM fold but the General is well into it's rebirth as a serious competitor in today's automotive market driven by product. Saturn has most definitely made an impression on not only GM but also the automobile industry as a whole... the UAW is simply trying to insure that Saturn will remain in GM's stable of offerings as they have been over the last 14 years.

[eRic 02sc2]

oh well. saturn isn't "saturn" anymore.

[rossao1]

"Some workers are concerned that Saturn will lose its identity if the original labor contract is abandoned," said the Detroit News in a story earlier this week. But without workers' approval to dismantle the original contract, GM said it could not guarantee the plant would remain in operation after the current generation ION and VUE complete their production cycles in 2008-09. "With an approved contract, the membership has done everything in its power that it's been required to do to ensure the [GM] board of director's approval of future product and capital for this site," Mike Herron, UAW Local 1853 Chairman told the Tennessean.

THIS STATEMENT IS WHY I HATE UNIONS! Saturn has been leading changes for GM. Why would GM kill it? It's the typical scare tacit. Arrrg... Maybe, I just hate the unions leaders, thugs.

I bought from Saturn in Oct. '91, and I still have that car, and the "simple" union contract was a factor. I vote with my dollars. I took I huge risk, if you really think about it. And still, thirteen years later we have a Chevy clone for a product. I lost have my respect for Saturn.

[4001]

GM management... :rolleyes:

The suggestion that the workers at Spring Hill were somehow jeopardizing the plant's future is absurd. The workers are not responsible for Saturn's problems. But I guess it's easier to blame them than to admit that GM execs squandered Saturn's momentum. They simply starved it of new cars and updates for too long. It seems to me that the S-series - before it grew downright arthritic compared to the competition - was more than capable of keeping Spring Hill running at capacity. When did the workers suddenly become the liability at Saturn? When they couldn't cover the mistakes that GM execs made?

It's going to take more time, more new products to get Saturn back to where it was, but that's too much work and the will isn't there. Let's just put the screws to the workers like we always do, squeeze concessions from the unions. A different kind of company, indeed. Yes, this definitely makes me think less of Saturn. Somehow I find it difficult to get excited about just another GM brand.

[seamus1066]

Originally posted by rossao1
THIS STATEMENT IS WHY I HATE UNIONS! Saturn has been leading changes for GM. Why would GM kill it? It's the typical scare tacit. Arrrg... Maybe, I just hate the unions leaders, thugs.

I bought from Saturn in Oct. '91, and I still have that car, and the "simple" union contract was a factor. I vote with my dollars. I took I huge risk, if you really think about it. And still, thirteen years later we have a Chevy clone for a product. I lost have my respect for Saturn.

GM killed the contract for 3 reasons. First and foremost is that they could not layoff the employees. We were the ONLY auto plant in North America that the manufacture had a contract where they could not layoff employees. In the 14yrs I have worked in Spring Hill, we should have had no less than 15 layoffs. Some being short 2-4 week layoffs and 2 long term layoffs putting aprox. 1000 employees out of work for up to 2yrs. None of that happened. We kept showing up to work, trained and did minor cleanup and repair work. We kept getting our paychecks. GM does not like that, it does not help their bottom line.

The second was that our contract only allowed us to build Saturn products. Without a major change there we would be taking ourselves out of the bidding process for future products. It is impossible to bid on work for Chevy, Buick, Pontiac, or Cadilac if your contract says you can not build them.

Third, GM has a template for the leadership structure and support structure in all assembly plants. Our unique contract with UAW Partnership roles did not come near matching the template. We had too many UAW roles that do not exist in the template. They wanted us to end the partnership as it stood and get rid of the jobs that did not match the template.

And last....we were told without going to the standard GM/UAW Local Agreement there would be no new products coming to Spring Hill. Voting No would have ment that in 2007, the last person out the door turns out the lights. Without converting the plant to steel panels there will be no more work for us after the ION and VUE. And yes, GM has closed plants as young as this. Before it was the NUMNI plant in California, this plant was closed 10yrs after being built. GM kept the plant closed for 5yrs before it reopened as NUMNI, in its joint venture with Toyota.

I have ten years left before I can retire. I do not care what car or truck I build to keep my job until then. All I can do is build the car or truck the best I can and hope they sell, so I may reach my goal. The rest is up to the Engineers to design a product that will sell and for GM to price the product in a competetive range.

[HiWire]

My heart is with the workers and those who still believe in the original ideals of Saturn, regardless of their current management situation.

[MydnightMyst]

Originally posted by rossao1
THIS STATEMENT IS WHY I HATE UNIONS! Saturn has been leading changes for GM. Why would GM kill it? It's the typical scare tacit. Arrrg... Maybe, I just hate the unions leaders, thugs.

I bought from Saturn in Oct. '91, and I still have that car, and the "simple" union contract was a factor. I vote with my dollars. I took I huge risk, if you really think about it. And still, thirteen years later we have a Chevy clone for a product. I lost have my respect for Saturn.
I am sorry, but I do not understand how today's union leaders could be considered thugs or at fault for what GM upper management is doing? Could you clarify things a little better, if you don't mind? Being a union member, I take offense to being considered a member of a "hated" organization. Sure, I can agree they are a little outdated, but I feel safer knowing someone is fighting for me and watching management. There is only so much they can do anymore, too. With so much cheaper labour overseas, it's hard to be able to bargin a contract for the RIGHTFUL pay EVERYONE deserves. Not just in the union, but all over. How fair is it to pay someone pennies on the dollar a day, set them in a factory where environmental laws are MORE of a joke than here, and FORCE them to work 10-12-14- or even 16 hours a day??? It's good that we have a union, mostly as a tool to show other countries what they can achieve by organizing. We do have enough laws here to justify abolishing unions, but then I do enjoy not being forced to work overtime of any sorts and having such a nice workweek..
Anyway, unions are not the evil entities that they are made out to be. Yes, there were ones with a great many faults, and none are perfect. Yet, they stil serve a purpose, however dwindling it may be anymore.
GM makes the decisions and the union leadership fights to keep benefits and jobs. We have given up pay, we have given up hours of overtime, we even have given up traditional work weeks in favour of alternative work schedules. We give blood, sweat, and tears to these places. Just like anyone else, we deserve good pay and benefits. Only we are fortunate to have organizations to fight for it. It's like any stock holder. Only instead of investing monies, we invest our physical strength, our time, and most importantly, our lives. Where else do people work 30-40-50 yrs. at ONE place anymore? Not very many places.

[MydnightMyst]

Originally posted by seamus1066
GM killed the contract for 3 reasons. First and foremost is that they could not layoff the employees. We were the ONLY auto plant in North America that the manufacture had a contract where they could not layoff employees. In the 14yrs I have worked in Spring Hill, we should have had no less than 15 layoffs. Some being short 2-4 week layoffs and 2 long term layoffs putting aprox. 1000 employees out of work for up to 2yrs. None of that happened. We kept showing up to work, trained and did minor cleanup and repair work. We kept getting our paychecks. GM does not like that, it does not help their bottom line.

Just thought I would add a slight correction. Your plant is NOT the only one with a contract where you cannot lay off employees. Delphi Thermal, AHG *lucky us!* in Moraine, OH. is another plant where the contract states that management had to maintain a certain number of workers. That meant, however, that we accepted the alternative work schedule. Seemed scary at first, but hey, having Friday-Sunday off. It's KEWL!!!! :)
Anyway, I have just under 20 yrs. to retire. I don't think I'll make it, but you never know what may happen. I hope, sincerely, that you do, and as a fellow union member, I will do what I can to support an buy your products!!!!
Best of luck to you and your friends in SpringHill. I hope things go well for you!

[YELO_SC2]

I voted yes, because it does change my view of Saturn as a whole, but if you didn't see this coming, you've been living under a rather large boulder since about 1997 or so. When the first re-negotiation of the contract took place weakening the collaborative structure of the original agreement, you knew that there was no middle ground and there was no going back.

The innovative nature of the original agreement was one of the original reasons why I became interested in Saturn and why I have advocated their products. It has been mentioned numerous times in this thread and I think it's 100% true that a majority of build quality issues come from engineering shortfalls and not manufacturing defects from the workforce...and if it is a problem with how the unit is actually manufactured, it needs to be re-designed to work more properly at a higher frequency.

Overall, I'm sad to see the agreement fully die, but it has been a slow, non-dramatic death that we could prepare for. To a point, I'm still happy that Spring Hill is still a factory run by Americans with products built by Americans with pride in their jobs.

[100KSW2]

Many thanks to the GM and Saturn insiders for adding their unique perspectives to this thread!

I did not vote on this poll because I have not (yet) made up my mind about Saturn's future. I would have preferred that all GM workers be protected from layoffs (speaking as a permanently laid off employee of a former GM subsidiary!).

I think that the best job security for GM workers is for GM to make the best cars in the world, bar none. Under the original Saturn contract the union leadership had a seat at the table and individual members could do stuff like stopping the line if there were problems affecting the quality of the product. What input does the UAW have now? The problems that have undercut Saturn's success have NOT been due to the union contract, but due to the starving of Saturn for new, world class products.

Good luck everyone!

[WHITE98SL2]

Originally posted by SATURNFAN13185
It doesn't change my opinion, in fact it reinforces my opinion that Saturn is now just another General Motors division. It seems like GM coerced the employees into signing it.

Ditto.:cry:

[LarsfromMars]

I can't wait for the day when stockholders figure out that management is the problem with American companies, not labor.

I loved everything about the S series, and nothing about the ION line, or current GM mismanagement, rape, and pillage of Saturn. This sounds like everything else that GM brass does: lazy, greedy, arrogant, and stupid. They must have a combinaton of Homer Simpson, Mr. Burns, and Smithers running the place.

How did an American designed, American manufactured, car that got 40 MPG when gas was $1.25/ gallon, built under an inspirational labor/ management agreement go to being a SAAB designed, foreign outsourced, dog that gets 32 mpg when gas is almost $2.00/ gallon?

Oh, it must have been all of the line workers in Spring Hill, they make product decisions, they research markets, they know what the customer expects, and needs, they set budgets, priorities, and all that good stuff. If they don't then how will you improve performance by punishing them? And if you are not eliminating the source of the problem, how do you expect to fix the problem? (sales in the toilet, no parking spots at dealerships because of overstock, lack of interest in product, established customers unhappy with product changes)

My next new car is more and more certian to be a Toyota, or Honda.

[busguy847]

As long as Saturns are built by unionized employees then I will continue to buy them. If GM ever dares to break the contract with its employees then it will lose me as a customer - forever!

[Black 96 SC2]

Originally posted by seamus1066
Without converting the plant to steel panels there will be no more work for us after the ION and VUE. Does this confirm our long discussed rumor that polymer is dead?? What a shame ...

[seamus1066]

Originally posted by Black 96 SC2
Does this confirm our long discussed rumor that polymer is dead?? What a shame ...

Sorry to say it does.....:no:

[wlhawk]

Originally posted by 100KSW2
I think that the best job security for GM workers is for GM to make the best cars in the world, bar none. Under the original Saturn contract the union leadership had a seat at the table and individual members could do stuff like stopping the line if there were problems affecting the quality of the product. What input does the UAW have now? The problems that have undercut Saturn's success have NOT been due to the union contract, but due to the starving of Saturn for new, world class products.

Good luck everyone!

GM must design better cars than others, if it expects to cut into their sales. The fate of the union members is in GM's hands, not the UAW. Quality, dependability and innovative ideas(like polymer) are necessary if Saturn is to survive.

[bobacker]

Years ago I bought my first Saturn. I believe it was an 03 SW1. They had not perfected the interior yet, and it rattled alot, but it was VERY reliable with good mileage.

At the time, I would consider no other product from GM.

The Vue is my 3rd Saturn, and probably my last.

I remember in 95 just after I bought the 95 SW1 that GM folded the Saturn Corporation into it self as just another division. Based on that loss of independence -- knew it would take a while, but I was pretty sure this day would come.

Now that Saturn is turning into just another GM product, I still feel the same way about GM. I require a quality long lived product. I am no longer convinced that GM will provide me with one. My feeling is that I will not buy in future a GM product, or for that matter, at this point in time, any car from an American car company.

That probably means I will do business with Toyota (my read is regardless of where they are built, their products are quite good -- except eventually they do rust).

Based on the numbers (current sales trends) I am not the only person thinking this way.

On the other hand, maby I can find a low mileage 95 SW1 <grin!>.

[bobacker]

Ford and G.M. Sales Both Fell More Than 11% in June
By FARA WARNER

Published: July 2, 2004

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DETROIT, July 1 - General Motors and Ford Motor said Thursday that their United States sales for June had double-digit declines, as Detroit continued to lose ground to Japanese and Korean rivals.

Over all, sales in the United States were weaker than expected, down 5.97 percent from a year ago, when adjusted for an extra sales day this year, according to Ward's AutoInfoBank. The seasonally adjusted selling rate for cars and light trucks tumbled to 15.4 million in June from 17.8 million in May, Ward's said.

Sales in June suffered in part from unusually strong sales in May - helped by incentives and sales to car rental fleets - which could not be sustained, as well as from difficult comparisons to June 2003, when aggressive incentive programs helped sales.

"It's fair to describe the month as disappointing,'' said Paul Ballew, chief sales analyst at General Motors, "but from a broader perspective, the industry is closely tracking what we expected earlier this year."

Signs of a softer market for cars run counter to recent reports - on consumer confidence and personal consumption - that point to increased spending by consumers. The auto industry, which has been promoting sales since 2001 with big cash and financing incentives, may have trouble keeping growth strong in the months ahead.

"We have been jamming the system aggressively since 2001 with aggressive promotions and incentives," said Joe Phillippi, a principal with AutoTrends Consulting in Short Hills, N.J. "We've been pushing 16 to 17 million units a year for more than six years, and there is an issue of saturation that we are going to have to contend with."

But higher consumer interest rates, in the wake of the Federal Reserve's decision on Wednesday to raise its benchmark rate a quarter of a percentage point, are not expected to have an impact on sales, at least in the short term. Automakers, especially the domestic automakers, are likely to choose to absorb the higher cost of borrowing money - at the expense of profitability - rather than ratchet down incentives. That is especially true for Ford and General Motors, which are both sitting on higher-than-normal inventories going into the summer selling season.

General Motors had more than 1.35 million vehicles sitting on dealer lots at the end of June.

"That's 150,000 units too high," Mr. Ballew of G.M. said. "We definitely need to pick up the pace through the second half of 2004 and through 2005."

With supply that high, the only way to move cars is to offer incentives for the rest of the year, said Jesse Toprak, director of pricing and analysis at Edmunds.com. "The $4,000 or $5,000 rebates we have been seeing won't go away."

General Motors reported sales declines in several important segments, including its highly profitable trucks and sport utility vehicles. The Chevrolet Silverado, the country's second-best-selling truck, was off 11.8 percent, and the Chevrolet Tahoe sport utility vehicle slid 26 percent. The company's one bright spot was Cadillac, with a 10 percent increase in sales in June. Over all, G.M. sales were down 15.4 percent.

Ford, including Volvo and Land Rover, reported an 11.9 percent decline in overall sales.

DaimlerChrysler, which includes the Chrysler Group and Mercedes-Benz, posted a slight increase in sales, 0.68 percent, helped by strong sales in the Chrysler Group for its new 300C sedan and the Dodge Durango sport utility vehicle. But those sales gains were offset by double-digit declines for the group's PT Cruiser, Pacifica and Jeep Grand Cherokee brands.

Many Asian automakers, however, were not disappointed with the month's sales.

Hyundai Motor America's sales were up 19 percent, with strong sales growth for the Sonata sedan and the Santa Fe sport utility vehicle.

Hyundai, once a perennial bottom dweller on quality ratings, has recently won several quality awards, bolstering its profile among consumers.

Both Honda Motor and Toyota Motor were able to rack up sales increases as well, despite having strong sales in June 2003.

Honda's sales rose 1 percent, with big increases in its minivans and small sport utility vehicles, and Toyota's sales were up 5 percent, according to Ward's AutoInfoBank.

While gas prices have eased somewhat in the last few weeks, James Press, executive vice president and chief operating officer at Toyota Motor Sales, said he had noticed that sales of many of Toyota's high-gas-mileage cars had increased while sales of less-fuel-efficient vehicles had declined.

Sales of the Sequoia, a sport utility vehicle, were down almost 20 percent in June, but the company cannot make enough of its hybrid electric-gas vehicle, the Prius, to keep up with demand.

[saturnphreak]

I agree with polarbear957. Why do car companies make the same cars over and over again and slap different names and body panels on it and call it something "new" or "different"? I'm sick of it. Ever since Saturn came into existence, they had unique cars that had a distinct look. If I was driving at night I could pick a Saturn out of a line of 50 headlamps. Gm has gone too far and it's a shame. Hopefully Saturn can find someway to stay unique as it always has these past 13-14 some odd years.(not sure when they came into existence) :ugh:

[TXVue04]

Originally posted by Fitter Roger
I will offer my .02 cents; as a non Saturn, GM worker.


Most of you are not aware that GM no longer makes it's own seats and interior plastic. It is outsourced to places like Leer Seating and Johnson Controls. That being said, it is possible to get a GM/Saturn seat made by Lear in the same plant making seats for Toyota. Most of Johnson Controls is used by Ford. So much for better quality, the difference is in the specs of the seat.



Interesting indeed, would happen to know who made the seats in the 2004 VUE vs who made them in the 95 SC2? The 95 SC2 Beat the VUE Leather seats hands down. :dazed: So much so, I plan to have my VUE ones redone in the future.