charlie (and everyone) - new discussion group?

[abkaiser]

(I'm not necessarily advocating a new discussion group, but that's the first solution to this that came into my head... If there's a better way, great.)

I was thinking it would be handy to have a reference that tracks individual Saturn dealerships. For example, I've heard that there are some Saturn dealers in california somewhere (and now, with djenning, in canada) that are horrible. On the other hand, my dealer seems to be average. BobL, on the other hand (the third hand, apparently!) seems to get excellent service at his place.

What would the best way be to have a database of customer evaluations of Saturn dealers?
Is this a good idea? Is there already an existing resource out there?

Andy

[HumpMan]

I don't the best way to accurately and fairly collect this type of information, but, ya know, I bet that Saturn has such a database!

Now if only we could see some of their survey results.

the HumpMan

[wei_]

AFAIK, Saturn does rate their retailers. If you're really really good, a sales consultant might accidentally leave it out and go help a customer. <img src="http://64.77.2.166/cgi-bin/UltraBoard/Images/Wilk.gif" border="0" align="middle">
-Wei

[JPRex]

If we start with a list of Saturn dealers and their respective ratings, everyone can look up dealers near them. But to maintain current opinions of Saturn enthusiasts, we could use a discussion group with subdirectories. Divide the country into regions (i.e. northeast, southeast, etc). Then each dealer gets its own thread to which we may comment. This way anyone can look for a dealer in particular and/or add a dealer as needed.

[spencerb]

JPRex has a good idea. Have a new category titled "Retailer Experiences" and Each retailer get a topic (only one) and all comments (good and bad) go under that topic. That way there is a list of all retailers (all that have comments) and discussion can be read under them. Charlie surely doesn't want to post experiences on the web site. That would indicate an official opinion of Saturnalia, even if they are opinions of users. Saturnalia needs to stay neutral.

Retailers change often, anyway. One retailer could be "bad," and then a year later be "good." Have discussion that allows for new opinions and experiences.

A big problem would be retailer bashing and exaggerated opinions. We wouldn't want one person's nighmare to seem like a reason to not breathe the air around the retailer. The "nightmare" may be something minor in another's eyes.

Maybe just keep the option of searching the General Discussion for that retailer for information.

[BobL]

Although the site is stupid, www.walmartsucks.com has a "rate your wal-mart" section. The main page is pasted below:

Rating Submission Form

All numeric rankings are 1 being poor and 10 being superb

Please note: Although it is most unlikely that you will experience any problems
responding to this form, certain non-standard browsers will not respond properly. If you experience any difficulties, (or if you are not using a forms-capable browser) you may email your response to this form to: toys@mint.net.

If your rating form has any 4 letter "F" words I will not post your rating This site is not rated X

It has come to our attention that Wal-Mart management may contact you through email.

If your Ratings and Comments are positive they will be DELETED

This is not a site that puts up with positive comments about Anal-Mart

If you have a problem with this tell someone who cares.

Please don't use false e-mail addresses. If you don't wish to have one listed just leave it blank or type in PRIVATE!

Name: (Required)


Email Address:


Wal-Mart Location


Cleanliness:


Appearance of Store:


Appearance of Parking Lot:


Are Prices Fair?:


Do You Always Find What You Want?:


Are Items Always In Stock?:


Are There Limits On Items?:


Check Out Line Speed?:


Attitudes of Associates:


How Did Associates Treat You?:


Customer Service:


Average Rating: (Calculator Below!)

(Required)


Comments:



---------------------------------------------


Perhaps Charlie could do something like this.

[JPRex]

BobL has a pretty good format that can be adopted for customer evaluations of Saturn dealerships. It allows users to rate dealerships while (hopefully) minimizing long rants. I have no idea how hard or easy implementation would be.

[BobC]

This is not going to be a popular opinion: This is a dumb idea.

Before you are quick to jump on this bandwaggon, consider this question: "Do I really want to help create an exclusive vehicle for djenning to continue his campaign to discredit his Saturn dealer on an on-going basis?"

[ClapDaddy]

Bob C,

I agree and disagree with you (how's that for being politically correct?

If it is set-up where each Retaiiler has a Topic/Folder, then it can be a great idea. Any person interested, can go to that Retailer slot, and see what is there and add to it.

BUT if it is ONE or SEVERAL Threads that include all or regions, then it could get quite confusing and some will feel tht they should post the same thing over and over to make sure that their point is understood.

NOW to implement something like this would seem to require quite a bit of storage space and/or set-up.

Finally, whichever way it gets set-up (if Charlie decides to do it), Charlie has the BIG eraser &lt;VBG&gt;.

Al

[abkaiser]

&gt;If it is set-up where each Retaiiler has a Topic/Folder, then it
&gt;can be a great idea. Any person interested, can go to that Retailer
&gt;slot, and see what is there and add to it.

That's about what I was thinking.

&gt;then it could get quite confusing and some will feel tht they
&gt;should post the same thing over and over to make sure that their
&gt;point is understood.

I was also thinking (and I don't know if this messageboard supports it), that there should be a limit of 1 post per member. That way everyone can say there opinion, but the board won't be spammed with unhappy (or excessively happy!) users.

&gt;NOW to implement something like this would seem to require quite a
&gt;bit of storage space and/or set-up.

Setup, maybe. Storage space, no. Storing text takes very little space.

[Kim_LS2]

I think the motivation behind a dealer rating is good, but it will not necessarily give an accurate picture of that dealership. For example if there are 100 satisfied customers and one dissatisfied and that one is on saturnfans only the negative will be heard. Reality distortion will work against all of us.

At the very least the dealership should be made aware of the negative posting and have a chance to reply. This makes it messy and invites a urinating contest. I suggest continuing with things as they are on a case-by-case basis.

I am not minimizing the problems people have experienced in any way. I am a new Saturn first-time owner and I looked at Saturnfans during my decision process. If I had perceived that Saturn did not back up their claims of good customer-dealer relationship then I could very well be posting on a Honda site right now.

[ClapDaddy]

Kim_LS2,

I see your point.

Yes there can be some bias or one-sided information about a Retailer. I do think though that most would be able to see through one or two posts that appeared to be negative. The big thing will be what fields are in the form and if the form requires certain fields to be completed, BEFORE the post would take.

As Saturn does monitor various BB's, this would be an area where they could catch a problem involving a Retailer, without spending hours reading various posts.

I can't speak for others, but I know that in the past, if a post was made on ANY NG, about a Retailer that I have contacts with, I would call them and give them the details.

This worked quite well in the OLD Prodigy BB, that Saturn had around the time of the first Homecoming. There were various Saturn supporters from around the country and when something came up, we would get the OTHER side of the story. Some supporters would print the post and visit the Retailer involved. You would be surprised how many "posts" were bogus.

Two of the funniest that I got involved with:

One person claimed that he had many fualts with his car. Looking at what he said, almost any problems that anyone had EVER reported happened to his car. I went to E-Mail with him and he just did not "sound" right. I then asked if he had the V6 (way before the L series) as Saturn had a secret recall on them. Told him to verify it and let me know. He wrote back and said it was a in-line 6. I then again asked him to verify it and if he knew how to tell. He wrote back and said he WAS POSITIVE it ws the 6 cylinder. I then told him that Saturn did not have a 6 cylinder and that I was going to send all the correspondance to Saturn.

Another person said his car burned about 3 quarts of oil every 1,000 miles and he was on his second engine (if I remember correctly). I asked him again, through E-Mail, if it was always that bad or just started. He claimed it always used a huge amount and that no one will help him.

I then asked him (he had an Automatic tranny), to check to see if his car had the normal/perf button on it. I told him if he had one without it that Saturn would probably replace his car. (ALL Saturns before the 1998 model year had the switch). Well, again the person claimed to have one without the switch and when I told him that Saturn did not make an Automatic without the switch, he disappeared.

Some would say that I "tricked" those people. Well, if getting REAL information from them is tricking them, then I guess I did.

One of the recent "problems" that I checked on, was the person who created "Saturn Exposed". I called the Retailer in Kansas and talked to the Service Manager for about 15 minutes. Story was 180 degress out of phase. I also talked to a contact at Saturn who gave me some more information. This information helped others to see that the person was a liar and really was at fault, for MOST of the problems he had with his car.

So, having all the Retailer complaints/compliments in one area would be a great idea. What will really beinteresting istoo see if similar posts occur for a specific Retailer.

BUT this is just my opinion!
Al

[BobL]

Al, that's great of you to do this.

The Wal-Mart sucks site has a drill down menu system to get you to the state/city involved.

If we could get a balanced opinion on particular retailers, it might help some people decide whether or not to buy a saturn and, if yes, where to shop for it.

The dealer's so important to your ownership experience that you may need to cross Saturn off your list if there are no good retailers nearby. This, of course, is true with any make but more so with Saturn because of geographical franchising.

[HumpMan]

I'm all for good statistical information that gives "us" the ability to evaluate the various retailers around the world. The big trick, of course, is to get good information and present it in a format that allows for fair and intelligent interpretation.

Issues:
1) Survey vs. Poll data. We likely will only get survey information which can be highly variable and filled with hidden bias. Poll data at least tries to control for this. As an example, having an open forum that allows for a seriously disgruntled person "taking over" is one danger of a survey. Having a fixed, consistent polling form mailed out to each person who gets service (like most of us), is the example of a poll. One is easy to set up, the other, a really big job.

2) Temporal factors in the data. Collecting lots of information seems like a good idea, but unless efforts are taken to keep it dated and with follow up evaluations, then this can become a source of confusion. An example would be a retailer that changes ownership group. It may have been horrible before, but great now. If all the data is just accumulated, it then does not give an accurate portrayal of the current situation. It could even be more subtle than than. Maybe a retailer is outstanding, but then hired one really "bad" team member (just a hypothetical). We might either get the picture that the entire retailer has gone to pot, or that it is an exemplary retailer and negative comments make no sense. So the level of detail and assessment levels may be important factors in the evaluation.

It's a complicated task, not only from the numbers involved, but from the nature of the beast, IMHO.

the HumpMan

[Will_Rage]

opinion forums often turn into flame wars. Check out the newsgroup rec.autos.makers.saturn and you'll see the worst of what can happen. One person (squeaky) posts and posts about their personal issues with one particular dealer as if it's the car's fault. True there are cars of every make that develop more problems than others, but those are the ones you hear about. Turn on the news. How many happy stories of everyday success do you hear? Not many. That's not news. Unfortunately many people believe most of what they hear and see that is negative about anything without bothering to look into the positive. How is YOUR car running? Fine? So's mine. And how is your car running? "Well the dealer screwed me over on this piece of crap car everything breaks it's shoddy workmanship....." and it goes on.

I don't have that much to say about my Saturn dealer. I told them what I wanted and they went and found it. I don't really do much maintenance myself as I have neither the tools nor the time. Would I buy a Saturn again? Better believe they are at the top of the list. I am considering others, but it will take more than just an equivalent product to sway me.

For the record... 93SL1m 98120 miles 2nd alternator and 33rd oil change. I have nothing bad to say about Saturn of Alhambra. Their performance division at Saturn of Monrovia (aka Sierra Performance) is another story, but I won't go into that.

Rageout

[hugh]

The idea is good,but the execution could be a minefield. If the info is to be useful,there has to be some way of ensuring that negative input can be verified for accuracy. For instance,what is to prevent a disgruntled individual from registering on this site under 20 different names and inventing bogus problems regarding a particular dealer thus unfairly affecting the dealers rating in the eyes of prospective Saturn buyers?

Will there be some way for dealers that seem to have a lot of complaints to have a chance to tell their side of the story? If so,I think most dealers would want the name of the customer concerned so the details could be checked out before commenting.

[Abe95SC2]

I agree with BobC

While I really like the idea of having our dealers (retailers?) rated, this would be a playground for people like djenning to urinate and moan over and over and over and over about how their dealer didn't do this or that right (long sentence eh?).

Anyway good idea but there should be some control. Like one post per member regarding thier dealers overall performance.

Abe.

[HumpMan]

Good scientific polling is difficult. Not only do you need a good sample, you need some control over accuracy and some way of weighting the severity of the poll value. Better still to have some control of the polled population, or at least demographic information so that there is some possibility of normalizing out various factors. And then, as I mentioned before, you need to have some control over the age of the sample as well.

Very complicated and costly to do well, IMHO.

the HumpMan

[Charlie]

Hi Everyone,

Good ideas!!! Thanks for your feedback on this suggestion. I'm going to try to put something together. When its ready, I'll post it so it can be trial tested and tweaked (based on what you all think).

I really want to be able to keep the data as up-to-date, accurate, non-biased, and reliable as possible. I think I have a way to do this; I'll let you know how it works out.

Charlie

[abkaiser]

Cityhawk, here's the post I was telling you about. Hope it helps!

[ducklet]

Hey, this is a pre-historic post and definitely in the wrong forum, but I like this idea! Did it ever happen?