Nikasil / Nicom Liners ??

[TomM96]

I just spent most of my efforts for over a Week attempting to hone a '96 DOHC block (135kMi) to proper shape ... and gave up (abondoned ship).
Good News- the cyls had No ridge , and were about right Size.
Bad News
- the cylinders were Out of Round , and also Tapered. Each cyl was different from others , though the central pair were more normal/typical.
- Cyl #4 gave no indication of ever being larger than the others.
- The out of round of # 4 was initially 15 thousandths near the top of the bore.
- All four pistons had seized. There were fret/gall marks on one side of each piston , and both sides of #1 piston. In the cylinders , there was a ring-shaped zone around each bore where the honing was worn ... and where the material (of the bore) was significantly softer.
- With my version of the Ammco-Coates 500 hone i was able to bring the central cylinders within range of specs {ca .0004" max O/R and taper} .
- At Cyl #4 i was able to reduce the O/R to 1 thousandth , but the bore was expanding apace.... , no good!
- Each connecting rod (big end) bearing shell was worn down to brass Only on the portion by the split (corresponding to excessive load in the middle of the stroke , where the cyls were worn.
- A local precision automotive machinist concurred with my assessment that the block had experienced excessive heat , as thru driving without coolant.

Question: Are the Satty liners composed of hardened material , as Nikasil/Nicom/SCEM , or other proprietary coatings?

The local machine shop proprietor says that those things must be machined with a special diamond hone ... which he lacks !

This goes to the issue that one Really needs to have bores checked with a dial indicator reading to ten-thousandths , to know the situation.

Thanks for advice ... , T m

[OldNuc]

Yes, must be bored out with a 100grit diamond hone/boring machine. Bore to close then rough finish with the diamond hone. Then finished with a 280/320 ball hone. The #4 cylinder is slightly larger than the others due to the proximity of the EGR passages. The liners are not designed to be replaceable. Find a shop that does industrial engines and EMD locomotive engines.

[PlasticCarsRock]

Might be cheaper/easier to pick up a low-mileage junkyard engine. Even if you'd like to rebuild it to have a nice, new engine (better than new, if you replace or drill the pistons), a junkyard engine may be the better option to start with (particularly if you expect your current block was damaged by excessive heat). I'm not sure about where you live, but the my semi-local pick-n-pull sells entire engines (any size/type) for $200, and they often have one-day sales with prices lower than $100. (And this would also give you lots of spare parts.)

[fdryer]

Saturn's use a plain steel liner, no nikasil/nicom. Bored like any other pressed in liner and finished.

If I recall from memory, nikasil was invented to hard coat/plate bare aluminum cylinders for racing purposes to lighten engine block weight. The first American engine (experiment) was the Chevy Vega 4cyl without a liner and was a disaster from the beginning. The Vega was originally designed to use Mazda's rotary engine but GM couldn't control oil consumption when Vega's were produced so they decided to gamble on Jaguar's adaptation of a linerless engine using nikasil coating on bare aluminum cylinders. Other high end cars tried this too but GM came up too late with nikasil for coating the rotary engine and went with the bare aluminum 4-cylinder with a hard coat. It failed until people in the know slipped in steel liners. Too late and Vega died. Porsche tried in their 4cyl 924 with the same results but turbocharged their engine; excessive oil burning in a short period of time.

[OldNuc]

What the shop told him is the correct procedure for finishing the Saturn cylinders. That is the process fro producing the plateaued finish.

[TwinRevver]

Saturn's use a plain steel liner, no nikasil/nicom. Bored like any other pressed in liner and finished.

If I recall from memory, nikasil was invented to hard coat/plate bare aluminum cylinders for racing purposes to lighten engine block weight. The first American engine (experiment) was the Chevy Vega 4cyl without a liner and was a disaster from the beginning. The Vega was originally designed to use Mazda's rotary engine but GM couldn't control oil consumption when Vega's were produced so they decided to gamble on Jaguar's adaptation of a linerless engine using nikasil coating on bare aluminum cylinders. Other high end cars tried this too but GM came up too late with nikasil for coating the rotary engine and went with the bare aluminum 4-cylinder with a hard coat. It failed until people in the know slipped in steel liners. Too late and Vega died. Porsche tried in their 4cyl 924 with the same results but turbocharged their engine; excessive oil burning in a short period of time.

also in 2 stroke snowmobiles like the john deeres i have 2 trailfires they really pretty good easy on gas and wind up to 7k rpm.... distinct howling

[bumpdraft]

^also common in all dirtbikes.
My 1993 CR500 has a cast iron liner and that is what convinced me to buy it instead of a 250. The 250cc of that year had nikaseal....as does everything else today.
Heat transfer.
Nikasil cylinders can be bored and re-plated.
I'm on my 3rd cup of coffee...:)

[TomM96]

Gentlemen , thankyou (?) :

-- OldNuk ; for clarifying the many useful suggestions of yours discovered by searching this forum for 'diamond hone' . My initisal price quote for the block machining was $80/bore

-- FDryer ; for reporting that not everyone uses the nikasil/diamond honing procedure. A second local enginebuilder who does everything which comes thru the door ... suggested he could get the block in shape , Regardless (!).

-- Plasticars ; for what might be an invitation to google autowreckers in the greater Ithaca vicinity... the prices you note are of keen interest , and i do aspire to acquire another DOHC timing cover and head.
The present 'mystery engine Was bought from a junkyard in RI for what i thought was a decent $400 , given the 135kMi , which i thought 'safe' ....
The fact that the liner surface is currently displaying 'variable hardness' is somewhat dismaying.

-- Bumpdraft and TwinnRevver ; for the update on lightweight/hi-power engine production.
> Nikasil cylinders can be bored and re-plated.
-Verry Interesting!

[OldNuc]

On the Brush Hone website( http://www.brushresearch.com/index.php )there is a detailed process description of how it is done. The paper gives sufficient instructions that any shop should be able to pull it off.

Was that $80.00 total for 4 holes or $80.00 each?

[macbox]

As an aside, the man who runs the shop where I took my engine to be worked over for the rebuild I am working on told me the story that back in the day he would re-sleeve Saturn blocks. Apparently they would heat up the block and the sleeves would pretty easily come out or go back in.

[OldNuc]

Standard aluminum block trick is to heat block and liners to 375F and then stuff a sponge wet with cold water through the liner, they drop right out.

[jim147]

I was an engine builder until an injury in '99 sent me into HVAC/R, the /R is my main part.

I still have a copy of Engine Builder magazine from about '96 that featured the Saturn engine.

If the liners stayed in the block after the hot tank, they got bored in the Rottler and honed in the Sunnen.

Trying to properly clean up a cylinder with an overgrown brake hone won't get you much more then tiered or a dead drill or a tapered hole.

jim

[OldNuc]

+1^^^What he said.

[TomM96]

OldNuc-
-- I was quoted $160 for boring all four cylinders.
{dunno where the $80 came from!}

-- After reading about 70 pgs @ 2011 Brush Research Manufacturing Co.,
I am now a Believer in Flex/Ball hones !
-- BRM founder Steve A. Rands said , “Keep an open mind. Experiment. Nothing improves until someone stops and questions an accepted assumption.” {a good man}

>Gold Booklet : http://www.brushresearch.com/pdf/GB.pdf
Our first booklet on some common practices in Cylinder Boring, Honing, and Wall Finishing. An educational comparison of various rigid honed and Flex-Honed cylinder wall surfaces. 12 pages.
>http://www.brushresearch.com/pdf/ASOCWM.pdf
A Study of Cylinder-Wall Micro-Structure
An extensive study using a Scanning Electron Microscope to examine and compare the results of cylinder honing using rigid hones versus the Flex-Hone® Tool. The booklet examines what the honed cylinder wall surface should and should not look like. Three different studies are presented USA, UK, and France for comparison. 26 pages.
>http://www.brushresearch.com/pdf/NOP.pdf
The Necessity Of A Plateaued Cylinder Wall Finish
A detailed presentation of several test run engines with performance results of lower blow-by, increased compression, less ring and cylinder wall wear with the Flex-Hone Process. 28 pages.
* * *

>>>---..... I noticed that all my cylinders had seized. I also was interested to note indications that the upper/top compression ring may never have seated , or , more likely , had always leaked copiously , in that there was as much or more of a wear 'step' at the second ring as the first {but hard to measure , both less than .001"}.

//Related , from BRM:
1.)- "Engine failure can be classified as any engine that suddenly starts to consume large quantities of oil and has a large amount of blow-by. It usually requires immediate attention or there is a possibility of piston seizure that
might even tear the liner apart. ~
"There are many underlying causes for scuffing and although we are going to enumerate many of them, the one that we wish to consider at this point is
scuffing that may be caused by an unacceptable cylinder wall finish.
{The Necessity Of A Plateaued Cylinder Wall Finish , Pg-4}

2.)- "Sometimes there is so much blow-by on the first ring, that the major
part of the pressure is on the second ring as we quite often see scuffing
starting to develop at the second ring before we see scuffing on the first one.
{The Necessity Of A Plateaued Cylinder Wall Finish , Pg-7}
* * *

I will say that fine honing (rigid) stones , Iff applied following coarse stones , and Iff the coarse stones have converted the bore from O/R//Tapered , to a near-perfect cylinder, and Iff the fine boring is not applied with much pressure , will/can establish a pretty smooth surface....... so that i suspect the great value of the Flex hone is in rectifying 'commercial' production work.

This (guess) is corroborated by one of the BRM papers , when the local rebuilder's hone suffers (knowledgeable , close) inspection by the BRM team , which discovers markedly tapered stones , cracked stones , and stones which were of varying thickness . [When trying to set up my Ammco 500 , i noticed that both the stoneset i bought 15 years ago (new/OEM) , and the 50(+/-?) year-old stoneset that accompanied the hone when i took possession of the relic 25 years ago , were comprised of stones which differed in thickness by about .010" ]. When i employed the Ammco to re-size my 1980 diesel VW
soft cast-iron block , i found it useful to shim (under) and mask (over) the stones at intervals , in a rather primitive , (if effective) confused effort.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * ** * ** ** * *
Jim147:
> "Trying to properly clean up a cylinder with an overgrown brake hone ..."
-- I still think the predominant problem for me (my resizing effort) is the
incompatibility of my Stones and the Extremely Hard Satty Cylinder Bores.
Even then , if they weren't O/R in multiple phases , i think it would've
worked. (Two of the cylinders are in spec...or would be after Flex-Honing.)

I have communicated with a 'honing expert' who sells stonesets for many types of equipment {my local Ammco representative was uninterested and oblivious , since that part of his linecard only represents about 2% revenue}, and i think i may try something else.

The stoneman recognized the Ammco , and rated it a competent device , though assuredly a notch below the Sunnen.

[OldNuc]

What all this boils down to is unless you have tools, experience, and money to invest in the correct stones - hones the best approach is to cart the block off to the shop for a bore and hone. Measuring cylinders out to 1/10,000" is not a simple task, not to mention the tool cost.

FYI, the liners in the 40s-50s CAT diesels are so hard that you had to etch them to seat the rings. Modern hones will finish them but you spend $$ for the stones as the liner eats them.

This all brings up my issue with the "drive it like you stole it" break in recommendations and the corollary of "drive it like an old lady with a shawl". You have to get the top ring to seat. I suspect many DIY rebuilds fail because of the over zealous use of a ring expander.

[TomM96]

>What all this boils down to is unless you have tools, experience, and money to invest in the correct stones - hones the best approach is to cart the block off to the shop for a bore and hone.
-- I agree. But neither of the 'known good' rebuilders indicated they had the right stuff... which deflected my interest.

[OldNuc]

And, that is always the problem. Sometimes you get to take a road trip to get the right shop.

[TomM96]

Progress (?!?) Update:

Sooo , i received 4 new undressed #80 SiliconCarbide stones
- After 4-6 hours of gentle honing , they assumed a radiused periphery. After another 3-4 hours they sounded like they were working/wearing evenly. Another three hours resulted in :
- Finally , the O/R disappeared ... but a new issue resulted: Although all the upper 4/5s of all the cylinders were 'round and square' , the bottom 1/5 indicated a taper of 15 thousandths toward the bottom.
-- Following re-adjustment of the shims (guestimate sizing) , and then another 4-8 hours of honing , all four cylinders are now within .0007 in all sections , and within .0004 in most.

The pace is too slow , but the #80 stones do what the #220 did not, which is , resize/reconfigure the bores.

Successful results accompanied a 'novel' stone-masking technique, which was attempted due to limited convenient options. I discovered that a strip of the heavy paper employed in the magazine cover of a Sunday newspaper "Glossy magazine" was effective in masking the upper section of the cylinder walls while removing the bottom taper (and exhibited good durability , likely due to its absorption of the kerosene honing fluid). It was superior in both regards to the thin teflon sheeting which i'd used previously ... and which overheated and abraded away.

* * * * * * * *
OK , so now i plan to experiment with some fancy machinists 'cutting oil'
{actually TapMagic tapping fluid} which i expect to increase cutting speed and decrease effort in same. Soon , i'll need pistons and rings. After reviewing some of the honing/sizing information i realize that i need more information.

-- Specifically , Brush research indicates that plateau honing is only advantageous if the cylinders are round/square within .0004" . If that shape -- and a good surface -- can be assured , then Mahle/PerfectCircle rings might be worthwhile . Otherwise , more primitive honing technique implies more basic ring technologies . I'd like the chromed PC rings for durability and decreased emissions ... but am unsure of my surface finish technique.
NOW , a Wrench in the Works ..... Torque plates !

> http://engineparts.com/pdfs/Performance_Rings_Brochure.pdf {PerfectCircle advice} 'Cylinder Bore Surface Finish' :
“ A plateau finish should only be used when third and fourth order bore distortion is less than .0004” Engines with excessive distortion have better break-in and oil consumption if a peaked finish is provided “

I confess that i was unaware of the concept of '(harmonic) orders of distortion' in (near!) cylindrical bores. However ... i've been harboring suspicion that there was some active research ongoing , in certain circles , which yielded better cylinder sealing/wear properties . These refs introduced me to the possibilities--

> Engine tribology - Google Books Result
books.google.com/books?isbn=0444897550...
Engine tribology By Christopher Malcolm Taylor::
(Pg-259) “The variation in geometry around the circumference of a distorted cylinder bore may be modeled by a general Fourier series....” ~
“ Hill and Newman (1984) , Fesser (1988) and Dunaevsky (1990) have all adopted this approach to distorted cylinder bores. It enables complex bore geometries to be broken down , using a Fast Fourier Transform (FFT) algorithm , into simpler components which can then be analysed to assess the reasons for the distortion and possible remedial action. For example if a fourth order distortion (see figure 2.1) is a major component in a distorted cylinder bore then the tightening of the four cylinder head bolts would be questioned. “
> [PDF] CYLINDER BORE DISTORTION DER BORE ... - Paul Gibbs 16/05/'01 pjgibbs.plesk.freepgs.com/BATReport.pdf http://pjgibbs.plesk.freepgs.com/BATReport.pdf 14-Pg pdf (Pg-5)
2.3 Causes of Distortions 2.3.1 Bolt Loads
*1 Heads are the primary cause of fourth order distortions, bearing carriers cause second order , and the unsymetrical supports on the outside bore of blocks cause third order distortions.*1
With cylinder liners , supports , cooling jackets , head gaskets , external mountings and other considerations , the design of blocks to minimize distortion is a complex subject ….

> http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Article/2046/cylinder_bore_refinishing.aspx
Cylinder Bore Refinishing Larry Carley 2004/05/01 EngineBuilder
" To get as round a hole as possible, many engines with thinwall castings should be honed with a torque plate and head gasket bolted to the block. "

* * *
OK ;
My Situation- discovered O/R condition in all cylinders originally , some had O/R in One phase/direction/orientation toward the Top of the bore, and Another direction toward the Bottom of the bore.
My Question(s)-
Was this aberration (1) a result of the block "settling" into shape over time while running/assembled, or (2) a reflection of stresses incurred at assembly which were never corrected, or (3) a temporary relaxation effect , which will disappear at reassembly?

It seems that re-measuring the cylinders , while a TorquePlate is attached ,
would answer my question , or at least provide very useful/relevant information.
I see that BHJ Products , in CA makes some for Saturn-
http://www.bhjproducts.com/bhj_nav/nav_honePlate.php
http://www.bhjproducts.com/bhj_content/products/honingplates/hp_applist.php
Honing Plate & Cylinder Head Plate (Torque Plate) Applications
Complete List of Currently Available Engine Applications :: Saturn 1.9L 4-Cyl > $425.oo BHJ Products, Inc. 37530 Enterprise Court, Newark, CA 94560-3407, USA Phone: +1(510)797-6780 Fax: +1(510)797-9364

Has anyone experimented with these?

[OldNuc]

Harley has been using torque plates when honing barrels for as far back in history as I ever looked. Definitely in the knucklehead era.