Disturbing Trend Prompts SaturnFans Community Rules to be Updated

[Charlie]

I've noticed a disturbing increase in the number of members attacking other members, their cars, and Saturn. This type of activity will not be tolerated. It is against the rules of this board to post messages that are rude, inconsiderate, or that bash other members or Saturn. Constructive criticism is encouraged, but the off-the-cuff remarks that have been posted here lately are getting out of hand.

My primary goal as the administrator of this message board is to maintain a community where all owners, enthusiasts, and skeptics feel comfortable talking about their cars and ownership experiences - whether they are good or bad. However, a growing trend on this site involves a small group of members who, for a variety of reasons, have began posting rude or sarcastic messages that are insulting and offensive. No one should be forced to defend their Saturn purchase, or be made to feel that they made a poor decision by buying a Saturn. Any member who engages in this type of activity will have their account deactivated. The mudslinging - whether it targets another member, Saturn, or GM - has to stop.

One area of specific concern to me are some of the more recent ION discussions. They seem to be turning into debates between ION and S-Series owners - a turf war of sorts - and some are getting ugly. There is no "us" or "them" here. We are all part of one community and extended Saturn family. S-Series owners who bash the ION are insulting new ION owners who are new to the board. Regardless of how you feel about the ION, its important to make new members feel welcome here. I am very thankful that the vast majority of members do a terrific job welcoming new members. However some members have insinuated that, among other things, the ION owners are "blindly" supporting Saturn with their purchase. We all have our own personal reasons for buying a car, and most of us spend a lot of time researching our options before buying anything. Just because you may think the ION is not as good as the old S-Series or its competition, does not mean that it really is inferior... that is only your opinion. Some folks have even gone as far to say those who like the ION are close-minded. This is immature and childish. Saturn has always been about change; they've always done things different. I'm not sure why that's such an issue now.

I understand that we each have our own opinions about the current state of Saturn, and I am not trying to stifle any current or future discussions on this topic. I want everyone to feel comfortable posting threads with constructive criticism or ideas on how Saturn could build a better car. Just try to understand your fellow members' point of view - their opinion is just as valid as yours. We each come from different walks of life, and can positively contribute to this community in many ways.

Please pay close attention to the revised set of forum rules listed below. This is not an attempt to limit your freedom of speech. This is about R-E-S-P-E-C-T... respect for others and respect for the rules of this community.

Thank you for your understanding and cooperation.

Charlie

SaturnFans.com Community Rules

Please refrain from the following:

- using profanity
- being disrespectful to other members
- posting rude, distasteful, overly sarcastic, or insulting language
- sending obnoxious or rude private messages to other members
- posting pornographic materials, images, etc.
- making personal attacks on other visitors who post
- bashing Saturn Corporation or other visitors (constructive criticism is welcome)

[Xanatos]

Charlie,

I want to thank you very much for bringing this issue to bay. I've been finding it very difficult to post here as of late just due to the extreme negativity that's going on. I come here to enjoy myself, not feel bashed.

I look forward to posting more in the future,
Thanks again.

[piney]

Good post Charlie! I've noticed these recent incursions to civility and don't much care for them either. As I've told several posters, both publicly and privately, there are many other boards out there if junk talk or porno or flaming others is your thing. This ain't one of them though and if that is your thing, go find one but don't bring it here.

Keep up the good work though Charlie. :redjump: :grnjump:

[FL ION BY]

I have only been a member of this board since January of this year. The reason I found this forum is because of the ION. While I have always owned Saturn cars and been very proud of the cars and a satisfied owner, it was the ION that brought about enough excitement to seek a forum like this. I am a "Saturnfan" now because of ION rather than just a happy Saturn owner.

[VTHokie00SL2]

Seems like a fine line here...I assume that it's acceptable to point out facts such as that the ION has worse fuel mileage than the S Series and even some new midsize cars. Is it acceptable to state one's opinion that this should be considered unacceptable? Is it acceptable to criticize the downgrading of components in the name of cost savings, or for that matter the more general trend of Saturn becoming just another GM division?

[VTHokie00SL2]

To add to my previous post, in all seriousness, how about the following:

"The ION weighs 2800 lbs" would simply be a fact.

"The ION is overweight" would be an opinion, but is it considered bashing?

[piney]

Stating facts are great. Continually repeating the same ones over and over to a non-receptive audience of owners who actually own the car is likely annoying to those who genuinely like the car though.

I have two SL2s in my garage. The cars are far from perfect and flawed like heck with many respects and the NVH levels are off the charts by modern measurement - just the same, I like them. If the ION owners constantly bashed my SL2s and harped on them, I'd be soon tired of it as well. This is why there are many other areas of this site to look at and waste time in.

Looking back to when the VUE came out, I viewed the VUE owners as barely Saturn Fans since the vehicle was so new and all. Nonetheless, they are Saturn products and their owners are SaturnFans.

[VTHokie00SL2]

Fair enough. I've certainly made my opinions known, so I'll shut up now. I just think it would be a shame if all that is allowed is Saturn praise. Again, I know that constructive criticism is allowed, but where is the line between constructive criticism and bashing? Perhaps the ION forum is the wrong place to criticize the car...but in the past criticism has never been confined strictly to the "suggestion box". If that's the way it should be from this point forward, I certainly have no complaint with that. But the one thing I would say is that as an S Series owner, I was never bothered by specific criticisms of the car. I do sort of get tired of some of the more general jokes about Saturn owners, but it's not a big deal. But certainly any specific criticism of the S Series didn't bother me just because I own one.

[piney]

Originally posted by VTHOKIE97SL2
Fair enough. I've certainly made my opinions known, so I'll shut up now.

Well, what I think has to happen is a certain sense of containment. In a forum where someone is seeking feedback on the ION, or whatever model, and there is feedback, let them know. In forums where they are not necessarily looking for ample negative feedback but for information, perhaps that is not the place to offer this same insight...

Originally posted by VTHOKIE97SL2
I just think it would be a shame if all that is allowed is Saturn praise. Again, I know that constructive criticism is allowed, but where is the line between constructive criticism and bashing?


Constructive would be offering it once where it was being sought. Bashing would be bringing up the same item over and over in many different threads.


Originally posted by VTHOKIE97SL2
Perhaps the ION forum is the wrong place to criticize the car...but in the past criticism has never been confined strictly to the "suggestion box". If that's the way it should be from this point forward, I certainly have no complaint with that.


As the forum grows, perhaps a bit of structure would be good for it. The suggestion box could be used for on-topic, constructive observations and such. (This is not my decision, but I figured that I'd chip in with my .02)

Originally posted by VTHOKIE97SL2
But the one thing I would say is that as an S Series owner, I was never bothered by specific criticisms of the car. I do sort of get tired of some of the more general jokes about Saturn owners, but it's not a big deal. But certainly any specific criticism of the S Series didn't bother me just because I own one.

I personally could give two tick turds what others think of my SL2 cars. They suit my needs just fine, are reasonably quick, OK on gas giving my driving habits, one of them is completely free to me and the other is paid for. People can bust chops on them all day long and all I say to myself is:
1) What is their payment.
2) How many dings?
3) How many are American?
4) How good are they in a crash?

Putting myself in the situation of having recently plunked down 15-18 grand for a car though and having it constantly berated because it ain't exactly what it replaced could get old I suppose. Me? I'd just keep coming back with the positives and enjoy the ride.

[VTHokie00SL2]

Originally posted by piney

As the forum grows, perhaps a bit of structure would be good for it. The suggestion box could be used for on-topic, constructive observations and such. (This is not my decision, but I figured that I'd chip in with my .02)


Speaking of which, why is there no S Series forum?

[piney]

Originally posted by VTHOKIE97SL2
Speaking of which, why is there no S Series forum?

It is a conspiracy to get us to buy an ION or VUE and Charlie is in on it!! :D

[Nuke-Em]

Originally posted by VTHOKIE97SL2
Speaking of which, why is there no S Series forum?

Do you realize how many posts there are on this board in reference to the S-Series?
:dizzy: I'm sure it's very difficult, if not close to impossible to seperate all of those posts from the others.


Matt

[IONicSaturn]

Originally posted by piney
I personally could give two tick turds what others think of my SL2 cars. They suit my needs just fine, are reasonably quick, OK on gas giving my driving habits, one of them is completely free to me and the other is paid for. People can bust chops on them all day long and all I say to myself is:
1) What is their payment.
2) How many dings?
3) How many are American?
4) How good are they in a crash?

Putting myself in the situation of having recently plunked down 15-18 grand for a car though and having it constantly berated because it ain't exactly what it replaced could get old I suppose. Me? I'd just keep coming back with the positives and enjoy the ride.

That is exactly the way I think when someone makes fun of my car. My Saturn is good for me, it gets me and my family where we need to go safely, fairly comfortably, cheaply and dent and ding free. I don't see why some people feel as though its their duty to continually bash what other people like, such as Saturn in general, and the ION. As an example not related to this board, this girl that I went to my former high school with constantly made fun of my car and Saturns. It's not like she just made fun of me at school, she was a friend of mine (I emphasize WAS because I can't stand her anymore), and she would sometimes come to my house. One day I had to move my Saturn down the street, while her and her boyfriend (another winner) were standing next to his Focus. As I drove by, she the passenger side rear quarter panel and scuffed it with her ugly black shoe. I was fuming; I got out of the car and screamed at her, and said that if I can't get it out, she'll pay to have it fixed. Instead of apologizing for damaging my car, she had the nerve to say "I don't care, it's a piece of crap (that's wasn't the actual word, but you guys get it) anyway. So what if it has a scratch." As she said this her idiot boyfriend stood there and laughed, so, I went over and kicked his brand new Focus and said "Oops, oh well it's garbage anyway" and walked back to my house and told them not to come back in. Then, a good friend of mine who also dislikes that girl, went into a CVS and who was behind the counter, the twit who kicked my car. They started talking and my friend told her that she just got a Saturn coupe, and then the dumb girl laughed, and was like "eeew, why did you get a Saturn." But somehow, she thinks that her rusted out 1992 Corolla is somehow superior to my '96 SL1 and my friend's '97 SC2. Hmmm, go figure.

Anyway, getting back to the topic, I am glad that this has been brought up. I am very tired of the negativity on this board too, especially regarding the ION. If you don't like it, don't buy it, but don't try and make others who do like it and who have bought it feel as though they are stupid for doing so. I happen to like the ION very much, and I am so sick of reading about this so called cheap interior. I have seen A LOT worse. It seems as though people dismiss this car and label it as junk just because they don't like the interior. Don't like it, great then, don't buy it and leave those who do like it alone. Like I said, I am glad this has been brought to everyone's attention. It's things like this that make SaturnFans.com as great as it is! Thanks Charlie!!!!!

[DualCamCoupe]

I have to agree with VTHOKIE97SL2, that I am a little unclear about what is and isn't considered acceptable. Are there some posts in particular that are problematic or is it more of a wholistic thing? A few examples would be helpful.

P.S. While I love my 2000 SC2, I'd certanly be willing to trade it for a brand new ION, if someone decides that they like the S-series better.

[Jaseball]

Hey IonicSaturn-

This is my second post here. I too just bought a new Ion3 and am enjoying it a great deal. My other Saturn was a '92 SL2 my family owned since the beginning of Saturn as a new car company, so although I am new here I also really like the new Ion for the positives.

The SL series was refined a great deal. I hated the plastic clips holding the molding to the frame. They snapped off and cost about $150 labor/parts to replace and the new ones would snap off again after a few years. Anyone with an earlier SL series probably knows what I mean. This was fixed in later models, such as the '97 SL1 my friend bought, and even though it annoyed me that my own '92 had what I considered a fault I still loved that car, since it was with me through so many years and moments in my life.

It's nice to see the moderators making an issue out of bashing and trash talk. That story about the girl and her attitude is sort of sad, but we all know those types.

By the way, my friend with the SL1 traded in his Saturn for a Mercedes 2001 C240 or some lower end Mercedes. Although this new car has many more bells and whistles, is a V6, and is a very nice car he often complains about people talking about his 'cheap,' Mercedes, worries about paying it off, is concerned with the dings and scratches. It seems you can't win no matter what you do if you listen to others.

A car is a very personal choice and many of us have very different needs and desires in vehicles. Some people would never keep a car for over 10 years like I did. Others don't think anything that can't do 0-60 in less than 6-7 seconds is worth driving. Some think any car worth less than $50K is 'junk.' The really shallow and snobby think any car over 1-2 model years old and not top of the line is for 'poor,' people.

The fact remains that no one drives your car, except you and your family and friends and as long as you like your car, that is what matters most. People who have to talk smack or try to hurt others feelings are just compensating for something within themselves most of the time.

[ricksLS1]

I'm keeping out of the ION forum. Like a snake pit.

[cali chick]

Just wanted to say thanks, Charlie. Things were starting to get out of hand in the ION forum. I hope that the above poster (ricksLS1) will give it another try in the future.

I've found this site very useful in my research for my future quad coupe. But now it has gotten past research. I really look forward to seeing what people are saying and there seem to be a lot of friendly, helpful people here. I'm glad you are trying to keep it that way.

[Nuke-Em]

Originally posted by ricksLS1
I'm keeping out of the ION forum. Like a snake pit.

Oh great, so now we're going to have some outcast forum. Speak of it and the children scatter and make hissing noises to purify their ears. Only the ancient ones who remember, once, long ago, when an ION forum did not exist.

Back in those times, it is said that we were all one and spoke within three popular forums--General Discussion, Tech Talk and Mods and Performance. And all was good. Until one dark day, the earth shook with fury and fire came down from the sky. And upon a horse rode the god of the forums. The one they call "Charlie", came down and foretold "Our divine being, Saturn, has introduced a new car...the ION, and the forum will come into existance." And the members saw what had been created, and saw that it was good. However, evil spread its demon seed throughout the board and caused great corruption and death--as this had been foretold by the prophets.

Those who are brave enough to venture into the forum never come back as they were. They are silenced to speech as though the evil one had cast a spell over the keyboard. Those that can speak only repeat of the horrific rituals performed there. These evils...they are...disturbing. Some say they saw Rear Independent Suspension Sacrifice, Demons that removed their heads and replaced them with others of different colors, and the horrific cyclops being known only as "CENTER-IP". But the prophesys have foretold that a savior will come down some time in 2005...however the future is unsure.

There is no chance to survive, make your time.

Can anyone else tell how bored I am? Remember, this is just a joke, no need for anyone to take offense at it. :D

Matt

[WHITE98SL2]

Originally posted by VTHOKIE97SL2
To add to my previous post, in all seriousness, how about the following:

"The ION weighs 2800 lbs" would simply be a fact.

"The ION is overweight" would be an opinion, but is it considered bashing?

While VTHOKIE97SL2 and I don't agree very much on certain subjects I will have to agree with him on this one. For example, if I give my opinion on the Saturn corparation of how I believe the company is going to the dogs due to GM's involvement, how the current Ion is a failure and list my reasons in detail then am I to assume that this is bashing. This would be my opinion of Saturns current direction and car offerings, but I will be reserved and not exercise my first Amendment rights on this board for I would not want to offend anyone or the all powerful Saturn Corp. As for the S-cars (and I own two of em) I can think of many downfalls to them and admit that they are far from perfect. If someone wants to criticise (bash) the S-series, go for it for I will even name my own complaints about the S-car too, that is if we are permitted. I like the S-cars, some I'm sure can't stand them and if they wish to speak up against them then they should have the right, but this is Charlie's site and I will abide by the rules and hold my tongue. I hope this post doesn't get me banned from the forums, but I had to put in my 2 cents.

[shamus]

Can't we all just get along?

[eRic 02sc2]

ok, i'll play nice.

[Jaseball]

Compared to many other forums this place is very polite and considerate, even with the people expressing concerns and complaints over GM and Saturn or the new Ion, but I do see the concern on over-moderation or just glowing praise on anything related to the topics on hand.

I have seen sarcasm, disappointment, and other sorts of posts, but I don't see a large amount of bashing or personal attacks, which are the things I would consider to be going over the line.

It is a balance between stating the same negative facts over and over or how we slip from trying to support Saturn owners into how we feel when comparing Saturn from the early '90's to what some of us see today and the direction GM seems to be going with Saturn in the future.

It is frustrating and disappointing, but at the same time should a fellow Saturn owner who just bought a new Ion and loves it have to fear going into a forum that is pointed at his/her new car and fear having the GM/Saturn debate, or the perceived negatives of the new Ion repeated from thread to thread?

I'm new here and I see people with 2000+ posts who have obviously been here for some time and are Saturn owners who may be a little disappointed and really concerned that Saturn is not heading in a positive direction.

I totally understand, but remember it isn't the new owner who loves their new car who is happy, seeking advice, and looking for opionions from other Ion and Saturn owners that are the 'enemy.'

In fact I really can't say who is the enemy per se, but I do know as informed consumers who are able to make their own decisions and spending their own money we are free to choose a new Saturn or change brands and models as many people have.

[shamus]

Originally posted by Jaseball
In fact I really can't say who is the enemy per se, but I do know as informed consumers who are able to make their own decisions and spending their own money we are free to choose a new Saturn or change brands and models as many people have.

VTHokie and Thatjerryguy are the enemy. I thought it was obvious.

:p :D

[Galileo]

Originally posted by WHITE98SL2
... this is Charlie's site and I will abide by the rules...
I actually prefer the forum because of this fact :D .

[1993SC2]

I admit that I bash on Hondas on a regular basis (my reason: you can build one from a Sport compact catalog, and you can get shocks and a Iceman cold air intake for Saturns.).
I also admit that I don't like seeing Saturn become just another GM division, but I think the ION is unique- does it look like the Cavalier? Heck no!

So, respect each other. Respect each others cars. Help one another, and love one another. The Saturn comminity (ION, VUE, S-cars, L-cars) is diddly squat compared to the Civic crowd. So, lets bond and become one big fat greek saturn family.

[CanVueYes!]

Hi Charlie,

You have done a fantastic job with Saturnalia, and we should adhere to your vision when you started this website. After all, we are non-paying members, and you have the ownership.

I just wondered, maybe in hindsight, having separate forums for each type of Saturn has contributed to the division among us Saturn owners. Before, when the forums were not separated by the type of car we own, maybe we felt that we were more together and harmonious. Now that we segregated ourselves, we see ourselves as separate groups, and it has become "us" versus "them".

Maybe, Charlie, we should just go back to forumless format so that we can become one big happy family again. Personally, even though we have the VUE forum, I would still click on "view new posts" first.

However, you are the boss. We can only suggest.

Thanks again for all your trouble and hard work.

[L300Boy]

Thanks charlie ... lately, the bashing and personal attacks is becoming a bit old.

I'll be honest.....with the ION and L bashing, I am finding it difficult to recomend this board to saturn owners I know.

I know im not completely removed from any of these particular situations but I always try to keep a level head about things, and will continue to do so in the future.

[VTHokie00SL2]

Originally posted by Jaseball
It is frustrating and disappointing, but at the same time should a fellow Saturn owner who just bought a new Ion and loves it have to fear going into a forum that is pointed at his/her new car and fear having the GM/Saturn debate, or the perceived negatives of the new Ion repeated from thread to thread?


Yeah, I fully understand that concern. On the other hand, sometimes discussions about the product in particular or the direction of Saturn in general come up. If only one viewpoint is allowed in those discussions, it seems to me you don't really have much of a discussion, just a Saturn pep rally.

Also, in defense of some of the negative comments, they were on-topic in the thread about the Car & Driver discussion. Do you feel that the entire topic, and the link to the C&D thread, was inappropriate?


How's this...unless I have something good to say about Saturn, I'll refrain from posting, at least for a long while. I spend too much time on here anyway! It's just so much more entertaining than looking at satellite orbital data! :) It gives me a nice distraction, but I'll resist the urge to post....I'll try to quit in steps - maybe I'll see if I can go a week for starters! Too bad they don't have a saturnfans patch, to help control the cravings! :D

[Jaseball]

VYHokie97SL2-

You have almost 3000 posts. Although you pointed out my GM comment in my Ion thread I don't think you were rude or off the mark there. It was just strange to see my thread go off on a tangent, but I also share some of the same feelings and concerns you have.

Except I do like the Ion and as long as it is dependable and with care, luck and good fortune I hope to have a great ownership experience, just like I did with my '92 SL2.

As I wrote earlier this board overall seems very friendly and supportive when compared to some others out there. I appreciate the admin's looking out for bashing and attacks, but hope they balance this out without hurting people who have differing opinions. That is very hard to do at times.

[mod96sl2]

Let me just say i have been a Saturn Fan since the car came out in the early 90's. I have wanted a Saturn since then, now i finally have one and i love it, i will be buying S series (or L or ION's) long after this one just because it's a Saturn. I like my car so much i've been spending the last week rebuilding mine (burned a valve) anyway i actually miss my car abecause i haven't been driving it for almost 2 weeks now, tomarrow i will finally be puting the engine back into the car. I have been a member of this site since i bought the car and i have gotten a good deal of advice here and i like the feeling that there so many other Saturn lovers out there like me. I just can't see the reasoning there for bashing any of the cars we love so much.

[DualCamCoupe]

Originally posted by WHITE98SL2
if I give my opinion on the Saturn corparation of how I believe the company is going to the dogs due to GM's involvement, how the current Ion is a failure and list my reasons in detail then am I to assume that this is bashing. This would be my opinion of Saturns current direction and car offerings, but I will be reserved and not exercise my first Amendment rights on this board for I would not want to offend anyone or the all powerful Saturn Corp.

Those are the rules. I think its too bad that we can't be critical of Saturn when we are upset at it, but its not my decision.

[Charlie]

Originally posted by wbarnum
Those are the rules. I think its too bad that we can't be critical of Saturn when we are upset at it, but its not my decision. I did not mean to imply that you can't be critical of Saturn. If we're not critical, how can we expect them to improve? I just think you might be confusing the terms "bashing" and "constructive criticism". Constructive criticism is welcome here; bashing is not.

Charlie

[Charlie]

This is all very good discussion! I plan to post responses to everyone's comments and concerns, but I need to get some sleep now. I'll follow-up tomorrow.

Thanks for your support!
Charlie

[project_sl-2]

Hi Charlie
Yes I too feel that this was neccesary... People, it seems, tend to get off topic when replying to posts... It upsets and offends when they do this because some are actually trying to obtain helpful information and when these parties reply w/ something that has asolutely nothing pertaining to the topic is makes things confusing, agravating, and discouraging. What I think is we need to have more people reporting problems like these to the boards moderator so degenerates like these can be put to rest.

[shamus]

Originally posted by Jaseball
VYHokie97SL2-

You have almost 3000 posts.

Yes, and about 2900 of them bash the ION! :D :p

Sorry, i couldn't resist :)

[VTHokie00SL2]

LOL! I used to be positive, really. Critical, sure, but with a positive overall opinion of Saturn. In fact, I was actually thinking about buying an L300 until I saw the 2003 redesign. I was hoping for a modest horsepower increase, maybe the addition of features such as stability control, manu-matic transmission, trip computer perhaps, and some minor refinements to the car's appearance. Instead, they didn't make any real improvements, made the instrumentation worse, and really botched the reskin, IMO. The prior year, I had been impressed with some of the improvements made between the 2001 and 2002 L Series. I was also impressed that the VUE was introduced with full polymer panels. Really, I like the VUE, except for the cost cutting (drum brakes, etc.) and the cutesy 3 letter name. But I guess the last couple of years have really changed my opinion of Saturn's ability to maintain any part of what made it worthwhile. I knew GM would take away a lot from Saturn, but when it comes to the point where you've got a steel bodied rebadged Chevy Venture built in the same old UAW GM factory there really isn't much of the "real" Saturn left.

[tomv]

mad max...beyond saturnfans.com

i believe an objective opinion regarding any vehicle is welcome in any forum on this or any other board. where we lose ourselves is criticizing vehicles for not being designed with our own specific interests in mind. we have to live with the fact that designers are trying to please a much larger and many times different demographic than any one of us fill. there will be different models that appeal and repel each individual differently. to bash a model because you dont like it is counterproductive for those who come here to learn more about the vehicle that they are interested in.
lets keep it saturn fans so saturn fans can enjoy it.
my personal apologies for the lengths i go to to strees a point when i feel i have to. i just have a soft spot for the company and believe wholeheatedly that they are on the right track. times have changed and we have to change with them or be left behind.
thanks for reeling us in charlie...well done and point taken

[tomv]

this may become one of my favorite statements to date piney...i will be borrowing it regularly from here on. thanks for brightening my day

Originally posted by piney
I personally could give two tick turds what others think of my SL2 cars.

and the eloquent use of the english language award goes too...

[jb12]

With regard to IONic's post, I certainly empathize. I can't stand it when people damage or destroy someone else's property and then justifiy it by proclaiming its lack of value.

I've been reading this forum for some time and though I don't post often, I'm always interested in what people have to say about Saturn in general, the '02 SC2 which I own, etc. I agree that the line between constructive criticism and bashing is a thin one, but I also agree that repeatedly citing the same facts over and over to support a position does grow tiresome.

Some examples, if I may. I'm making these up, but I think you'll see the point.

Constructive criticism: The ION doesn't seem to perform as well as my SL2, which feels quicker and more responsive.
Bashing: The ION is an overweight, sluggish dog. My SL2 beats the crap out of it.

Constructive criticism: I don't especially care for the center IP.
Bashing: The center IP was a stupid idea and looks ridiculous.

Constructive criticism: I'm disappointed that GM is absorbing Saturn and curtailing its independence.
Bashing: GM is killing Saturn because they're short-sighted idiots.

I think everyone wants to feel good about his or her car; remember the movie "Dave" with Kevin Kline, which suggested there was an actual government program dedicated to that very purpose? You spend 10-15-20 thousand dollars of your hard-earned money (and let's face it, most of us don't have that much of it or we'd be buying BMW's) and you want to feel like you spent it in the right place.

There's never ANYTHING wrong with getting what you want, even if it's not universally or publicly considered "the best." Sure, I could have bought a Focus or a Civic or a Sunfire, but I didn't want a Focus or a Civic or a Sunfire, I wanted a Saturn 3-door coupe. So I went out and got what I wanted. If you get what you want, 9 times out of 10 you'll be happy with it.

At the same time, I'm not about to insult, demean, or degrade people who bought a Focus or a Civic or a Sunfire, because that's what they wanted, or maybe they didn't know what they wanted and settled on one of those. They're not "wrong" just because they didn't want what I wanted, or didn't buy what I bought.

And there's no point in my saying anything, or really forming any deep, meaningful ideas, about the ION, because I have a 17-month-old SC2 with another 43 months of payments left, which I'm incredibly happy with, so I'm not even going to be CONSIDERING buying a car until the 2007 model year, at the earliest, by which time the ION might not even exist anymore, or at least might have been entirely retooled.

A little perspective never hurts. We all love our cars, and we all want to love our cars. Unlike most car owners, though, we also love the company that made our cars and sold us our cars, and we don't want to see that change.

[shamus]

Originally posted by VTHOKIE97SL2
I knew GM would take away a lot from Saturn, but when it comes to the point where you've got a steel bodied rebadged Chevy Venture built in the same old UAW GM factory there really isn't much of the "real" Saturn left.
Be glad they didn't take the battery!

My parents had to replace the battery in their Intrigue last year because it was leaking acid from the positive terminal - so bad that it corroded the connection. Yesterday, the same thing happened to my grandfather's, which is one year younger. The car died. Luckily, it was in a gas station.

Seems weird that the exact same problem occurred...

[eRic 02sc2]

this forum is the best of the bunch. others have come as gone but this one has lastest for a while and has the most members. plus it doesn't hose my browser!

[tomv]

Originally posted by shamus
Be glad they didn't take the battery!
My parents had to replace the battery in their Intrigue last year because it was leaking acid from the positive terminal Seems weird that the exact same problem occurred...

this has been seen in some delco batteries over the past few years. it is suspected that the cable bolts may be overytightened or in some instances a bit too long making contact with the lug inside the battery and stressing the terminal. it could happen to any vehicle but it is interesting that 2 people in your family experienced it.

[shamus]

Originally posted by tomv
this has been seen in some delco batteries over the past few years. it is suspected that the cable bolts may be overytightened or in some instances a bit too long making contact with the lug inside the battery and stressing the terminal. it could happen to any vehicle but it is interesting that 2 people in your family experienced it.

Two Intrigues bought one year apart in two different states (nowhere near each other). It's quite intriguing, pardon the pun.

The were no more than three years old when the problems occurred.

[sl2btnu]

ok i know this isnt probably the best place to ask this but ne way igot a smiley i want up but my name its a smiley holdin a sign that says REV ON MY RICE BOY an i want to know if i can put it next to my name on post! if theres a way to do this plz e mail me or talk to me on aim aol my s/n is sl2btnu an e mail is sl2btnu@yahoo.com thanks

[gil]

Yeah, can't we? I've had responses from someone who probably didn't realize the abrasive nature of his opinion. Please leave the contempt in the recycle bin. I don't need it and I wouldn't give it to you. Charlie is right in laying down the law. You had a bad day?
Don't make your problem my problem. I come to this site to learn what others want to share with me about Saturn, never mind your ego.

[gil]

Can't we get along that is.

[Twin_Cam]

Rock on, Charlie! Keep everyone in line. Although I kind of fall under the category of bashing other members in that 'Saddam' thread:(

Sorry.

[RustyJCNC]

As I have posted before, if I wanted to see people trash Saturn & the company I happen to stand behind, I'd goto a Honda forum. However, Saturnfans is much different then some other domestic forums out there.

Saturnfans, remains more in touch with the friendly, excellent customer-serivce oriented. I have to admit, for a while there I stopped posting, the flaming was getting down right annoying.

The advice on questions wasn't coming in and the people who seemed to be knowledgable were backing off for the same apparent reasons. However, I'm glad that Charlie recognizes there was a problem and slammed it down.

If people have trouble following the rules, kick them off. I'd love to see things come back together nicely again.

-j

[BobL]

Agree with you, Shamus and with Charlie.

Although I had a real lemon 2000 LS, my other 4 Saturns did reasonably well by me.

Unfortunately the ION fell short of the Corolla and I was not interested in another first year Saturn. This doesn't mean that Saturns are a poor choice.

Really loved the polymer and the fine dealer service.

We really should try to respect each other. Life's too short.

[plane]

Charlie,

Great job on the site! Your message was about as straightforward and as concilliatory as possible.

Every Saturn owner has a "Saturn" experience that is unique to that owner. I really liked the Saturn fit, form, and finish, I needed an inexpensive commuter car. and so I purchased a 2000 SL. What a great car!

Too much negativity is definitely a downer. But some constructive criticism is helpful, especially if the folks on Saturn's continuous improvement team ever take a look at these forums. My hope, and probably a lot of other people share this, is that Saturn builds the best, safest, most dependable, stylish cars on the planet. The Best. Bar none. This American success story should just keep growing.

[VTHokie00SL2]

Anyone hear from Charlie lately? I hope everything is alright...

[tomv]

i think charlie likes to keep a low profile and just jumps in when he feels its necessary. i gotta admit he handled this situation very well. straightened things right out. you can feel a calm in the threads. especially the ion subject. great job.

[94sc293sl1]

I would certainly hope Saturn fans can express their opinions on Saturn the company and Saturn vehicles--whether the opinions be positive or negative. For what it's worth, when I offer an opinion on the company or a particular model, I try and make sure to state it's simply my OPINION--it's not FACT. I personally don't care much for the ION, but that's simply my opinion. That doesn't mean the ION is a bad car, nor does it mean I feel ION owners are dumb for liking the car. For those who love the ION, that's great. For those who think my SC2 is a piece of junk compared to the ION, that's fine. Different strokes for different folks, ya know?
I consider myself a big Saturn fan. That's why I bought a second Saturn two years ago. I've noticed myself and other people expressing disappointment with the current Saturn company and/or product are for the most part either longtime Saturn owners, multiple time Saturn owners or both. Maybe we're just a vocal minority, but IMO it's a bad sign when a growing number of Saturn fans are getting more negative. When you have dedicated Saturn fans expressing disappointment more than before, that's not good for Saturn.
If the company is trying to reach new customers with new products, that's fine. But if a growing number of old customers are unhappy and sales of the new cars are slow, that's not good. I think most people here recall what happened when Oldsmobile started going for new buyers (i.e. with the '88 Cutlass Supreme and the "This is not your father's Oldsmobile" ad campaign). I certainly hope the same doesn't happen to Saturn, but I do have my concerns. When I read of slow Saturn sales the concern grows.
Also, I would encourage those with concerns about Saturn to contact the company. If Saturn/GM execs don't hear from disappointed Saturn fans, they are missing some critical feedback IMO. Personally, if someone doesn't like the work I do I want to hear about it so I can take those concerns into consideration for future work. If I only get positive feedback, how am I to know people are unhappy with my product?
Hope this doesn't get me banned, because I like sharing thoughts with fellow Saturn owners. :yes:

[tomv]

i believe that opinions expressed in the fashion you chose are welcome in any forum. the concerns lately stemmed from people blasting the new saturn products, the people who purchase them, the company and general motors. the comments were bold and downright rude with no regard for other people's taste in vehicle styling or driving experience. the tone was not comfortable for people who may have been interested in becoming a saturn owner.
there are many vehicles on the road today that i believe are not attractive to me or built the way i would choose to build them. i wouldnt dream of going to websites and tearing them apart as a form of recreation.

[mikthehickNC]

Thanx Charlie!!

If members here have been in love with Saturn since its creation, or whether they have just joined the forums b/c of a new Saturn purchase, or even just out of curiousity, it's imp. to remember that we're all saturnfans. This is like a FAMILY to me!!

Kim

[Charlie]

Originally posted by VTHOKIE97SL2
Anyone hear from Charlie lately? I hope everything is alright... I'm here and okay. :)

I've been swamped at work for the past two weeks, and spent last weekend travelling to visit a relative who is very sick. I finally downloaded nearly a week's worth of e-mails this morning! It was strange being away for such a long time. I've read everyone's comments and hope to post a response to all concerns early this week.

Thanks for your patience,
Charlie

[Temekun]

I'm new to this particular forum, having just bought a VUE. However I feel that any opinion, properly stated and based on a car not the person with the car, is fine.

On other boards that I belong this same problem comes up. Some have lists of blackballed people, some just have moderators that read everything and only let happy thoughts through.

Personally, unless people in forums act like adults then this forum will lose a registered member. And I'm sure I'm not alone in thinking that, while I like my Saturn, I really don't have time for this.

Like any conversation, make your point and move on and don't attack someone because they have adifferent opinion.

[Rob1956]

If you think you have much to say that is critical of Saturn, I suggest you go to this site: www.geocities.com/saturn_hate

[swoker183]

Originally posted by Rob1956
If you think you have much to say that is critical of Saturn, I suggest you go to this site: www.geocities.com/saturn_hate

the best one i read on there is someone complaingin about a premium increase in their insurance because they hid a guard rail! well no s@*t scherlock, that what EVERYONE would call an ACCIDENT. no matter what kind of car u have, thats gonna happen

[kilcher]

When I worked for the Saturn Information Team (not even sure if it's still around) I talked to this woman who drove sideways into a semi and she was mad that the tires left scuff marks on her door panels. :rolleyes:

I think I hung up on her. :D

[IONicSaturn]

Originally posted by kilcher
When I worked for the Saturn Information Team (not even sure if it's still around) I talked to this woman who drove sideways into a semi and she was mad that the tires left scuff marks on her door panels. :rolleyes:

I think I hung up on her. :D

She should be happy she is still alive to complain about it, and I am willing to bet that her Saturn played a large part in that. Speaking of the Saturn Information Team, I sent an e-mail to Saturn last night. This is the first time I didn't get one of those form e-mails that say "Thanks for writing to us...". I just hope they actually respond to it. I wrote Chevy a letter about a year ago complaining about one of their dealers, and I never even got a response.

[cary]

Saturn is more than nuts, bolts, steel and plastic. It’s an idea - an idea we’ve bought into. The Saturn way is to show the customer product. Price it fairly. Let the customer recognize value. That’s what we should continue to do here. Show what we’ve got. Present it fairly. Let the reader decide value.

We are a family. We have come to sit around the table, talk and learn a few things. And Saturn reads our words and learns a few things. I like the people I meet on this forum. I have learned from their advice, cautions and disappointments. I don’t believe any one of us is evil or stupid. Open discussion adds value to our Saturns. However, as in politics, attacks lead to counter attacks, which leads to nowhere.

[IONicSaturn]

Originally posted by cary
Saturn is more than nuts, bolts, steel and plastic. It’s an idea - an idea we’ve bought into. The Saturn way is to show the customer product. Price it fairly. Let the customer recognize value. That’s what we should continue to do here. Show what we’ve got. Present it fairly. Let the reader decide value.

We are a family. We have come to sit around the table, talk and learn a few things. And Saturn reads our words and learns a few things. I like the people I meet on this forum. I have learned from their advice, cautions and disappointments. I don’t believe any one of us is evil or stupid. Open discussion adds value to our Saturns. However, as in politics, attacks lead to counter attacks, which leads to nowhere.


I know I just responded on this thread a few minutes ago, but that was very, very, very well said! I totally agree. And your first statement was probably the reason why many of us bought Saturns. I cannot include myself though, because my car was purchased used from a Chrysler dealership. However, because of the Saturn Idea, as well as the cars themselves, I will always be a Saturn owner, and be proud of it, no matter what anybody else thinks, and no matter how much GM sticks its nose in (I like GM actually, I wish they would let Saturn be more individual, but overall, they make good cars). I too like the people on here very much, and I have also learned many things from reading the threads here. Everybody is always so friendly and willing to help, and I try to return the favor whenever I can. Actually, whenever I'm not sure of something, whether it has to do with Saturn, another kind of car, or anything else, I always think to come on here and ask!

[GreyDuck]

charlie, as a former message board administrator

you know how to run a message board!