VUE AWD system?

[ProDarwin]

Can someone explain how the view awd system works? I would assume that it is a Front Wheel bias system (Meaning most of the power goes to the front, until the wheels begin to slip). But how much power can be diverted to the rear wheels during slippage? Also, is it torque based, or wheel speed based?

[eRic 02sc2]

The VUE is available with front-wheel drive or all-wheel drive, which is available
on models with the V6 and five-speed automatic as well as on models equipped
with the four-cylinder engine and VTi. The all-wheel-drive system features a
transfer case located just ahead of the rear axle line that can smoothly transfer
torque to the rear wheels if the front wheels start to slip. The system is fully
automatic, maintenance free and so compact it requires no driveshaft tunnel in
the interior, allowing a flat floor.

[OhioVueBoy]

Originally posted by ProDarwin
Can someone explain how the view awd system works? I would assume that it is a Front Wheel bias system (Meaning most of the power goes to the front, until the wheels begin to slip). But how much power can be diverted to the rear wheels during slippage? Also, is it torque based, or wheel speed based?
View? View? Saturn doesn't make a view..
:o: :o: :dizzy: :dizzy:
~D.J.~

[ssicarman]

Semi short explanation.
During regular everday driving the front wheels do 90 % of the driving, there is always 105 of the power passed to the rear wheels.All torque regulation to the rear wheels is based on a difference in the speed between the propshaft (which is linked to the front drive system) and the rear wheels.When the front axle speed exceeds the rear axle speed the rear diff is activated through the use of an oil pump in the diff housing that begins to activate a clutch pack gives the rear wheels more torque. As the speed difference equalizes the torque difference returns to normal.

[ProDarwin]

Originally posted by OhioVueBoy
View? View? Saturn doesn't make a view..
~D.J.~

Good point. I meant the VUE. Anyways, I was just wondering how the system worked. Is the engine mounted transversely? I think it would be cool to make a turbo awd 5 spd saturn, and that system would probably not be too hard to adapt to a saturn car.

[DesertPuma]

Originally posted by OhioVueBoy
View? View? Saturn doesn't make a view..
:o: :o: :dizzy: :dizzy:
~D.J.~

Yeah that bugs me too, our salesrep told us he heard someone call it a "VOO"

[Qlara]

As you can see, the VUE's motor is still transversely mounted.
The tranny and AWD system is doing the magic to apply torque to all 4 wheels on demand. :yes:

Note: It still has a long drive shaft to the rear Differential.

http://www.saturnfans.com/photos/data/565/33202vue-awd.jpg

[OhioVueBoy]

Originally posted by DesertPuma
Yeah that bugs me too, our salesrep told us he heard someone call it a "VOO"
We get that all the time. One putz at work calls it that... he drives a Ford Festiva.. so noone really respects him anyways lol
~D.J.~

[ProDarwin]

Originally posted by Qlara
As you can see, the VUE's motor is still transversely mounted.
The tranny and AWD system is doing the magic to apply torque to all 4 wheels on demand. :yes:

Note: It still has a long drive shaft to the rear Differential.

http://www.saturnfans.com/photos/data/565/33202vue-awd.jpg

Are those drums on the rear!? VOMIT.

Anyways, I think it would be cool to turbo this system, and put it in a car, or even lower the VUE (Got it right this time) and turn it into an AWD performance vehicle. With the ecotec in there, you have plenty of engine capability, and the AWD + room for some wider tires will give you plenty of traction.

[L300Boy]

A CVT VUE was boosted a few months ago ..

[ProDarwin]

Hmm, how well did the CVT hold up to that. Why type of cvt is it? Standard belt, Toroidal, etc.?

[alanhvue]

Originally posted by ProDarwin
Hmm, how well did the CVT hold up to that. Why type of cvt is it? Standard belt, Toroidal, etc.? The VTi (http://www.gm.com/automotive/gmpowertrain/transmissions/vti/index.htm) uses a metal belt.
http://www.gm.com/automotive/gmpowertrain/transmissions/vti/images/vti_kimball.jpg
http://www.gm.com/automotive/gmpowertrain/transmissions/vti/images/steelbelt.gif

[Gerry Proctor]

Originally posted by ProDarwin
Are those drums on the rear!? VOMIT.

...

You have been sucked into technology hype. Consider yourself a lemming.

Unless you are driving an SCCA or Autocross where you experience maximum, repeated brake use, you will never likely notice the difference in identical cars...one with drum rears and one with disc rears.

The rear brakes carry a very light load and it's highly unlikely that you would ever get to the point of brake fade. Now here's the real kicker... drum brakes have a higher static clamping force than disc brakes. It's a matter of the brake friction apply area. And if you do an inspection, you'll find that most rear disc brakes are substantially different in robustness when compared to the fronts. The rotors are generally non-vented and very thin. They are also smaller in diameter than front in most cases. The pads are also tiny in comparison to the fronts. What should this tell you? That not much is being asked from the rear brakes so not much is offered.

Many cars (and trucks) come with or are offered with rear discs not because they need them, but because the consumer thinks it represents some technological advantage that they must have.

Now front discs are a different story since they carry 70% of the braking load.

[OhioVueBoy]

Originally posted by Gerry Proctor
You have been sucked into technology hype. Consider yourself a lemming.

Unless you are driving an SCCA or Autocross where you experience maximum, repeated brake use, you will never likely notice the difference in identical cars...one with drum rears and one with disc rears.

The rear brakes carry a very light load and it's highly unlikely that you would ever get to the point of brake fade. Now here's the real kicker... drum brakes have a higher static clamping force than disc brakes. It's a matter of the brake friction apply area. And if you do an inspection, you'll find that most rear disc brakes are substantially different in robustness when compared to the fronts. The rotors are generally non-vented and very thin. They are also smaller in diameter than front in most cases. The pads are also tiny in comparison to the fronts. What should this tell you? That not much is being asked from the rear brakes so not much is offered.

Many cars (and trucks) come with or are offered with rear discs not because they need them, but because the consumer thinks it represents some technological advantage that they must have.

Now front discs are a different story since they carry 70% of the braking load.
Thank you! I thought I was the only one on here that doesn't mind drum brakes, and don't understand why everyone gripes about them.
~D.J.~

[ProDarwin]

Originally posted by Gerry Proctor
You have been sucked into technology hype. Consider yourself a lemming.

Unless you are driving an SCCA or Autocross where you experience maximum, repeated brake use, you will never likely notice the difference in identical cars...one with drum rears and one with disc rears.

The rear brakes carry a very light load and it's highly unlikely that you would ever get to the point of brake fade. Now here's the real kicker... drum brakes have a higher static clamping force than disc brakes. It's a matter of the brake friction apply area. And if you do an inspection, you'll find that most rear disc brakes are substantially different in robustness when compared to the fronts. The rotors are generally non-vented and very thin. They are also smaller in diameter than front in most cases. The pads are also tiny in comparison to the fronts. What should this tell you? That not much is being asked from the rear brakes so not much is offered.

Many cars (and trucks) come with or are offered with rear discs not because they need them, but because the consumer thinks it represents some technological advantage that they must have.

Now front discs are a different story since they carry 70% of the braking load.

I have experienced enough brake fade in my car to know that I do not like drums. Granted most of the fade occurs in the front rotors, but the back still gets some. Oh yeah, and drum brakes have a higher static clamping force than disc - you know what that means? Yeah. You can lock them, real easy. On top of all this, drum brakes weigh more and increase your unsprung weight. Unsprung weight = evil.

[Gerry Proctor]

Originally posted by ProDarwin
I have experienced enough brake fade in my car to know that I do not like drums. Granted most of the fade occurs in the front rotors, but the back still gets some. Oh yeah, and drum brakes have a higher static clamping force than disc - you know what that means? Yeah. You can lock them, real easy. On top of all this, drum brakes weigh more and increase your unsprung weight. Unsprung weight = evil.

You managed to get EVERYTHING backward. Do some research on the subject. There's a difference between what you think you know and what is true.

I'll accept that you don't like drum brakes, but that's all.

[Qlara]

I like Rear discs.....it's easier to change pads and it looks more handsome too! :D

[ProDarwin]

I've done research on the subject. I go to an automotive engineering school where we design this kind of stuff for use on all kinds of vehicles. Discs have much more fade resistance than drum brakes, and are easier to modulate to prevent locking. I would like to see some fade info on drum brakes proving they have more fade resistance. Also, if you have the weights of the saturn brake system in both disc and drum, I would like to see that. I know that 90% of the time, discs weigh far less.
Drums contain heat within the system, whereas almost the entire disc is exposed to air to allow better cooling (And therefore fade resistance).

Where as drums are adequate for most cars, and most driving styles, some people (Me) like to push their cars to the limit, and discs are better for this.

[Gerry Proctor]

- "Discs have much more fade resistance than drum brakes..." True.

- "...and are easier to modulate to prevent locking."
Unless you have a mechanical (or driver) defect, false.

- "I would like to see some fade info on drum brakes proving they have more fade resistance."
I never wrote that and from a thermodynamic and design standpoint, that wouldn't make sense.

- "I know that 90% of the time, discs weigh far less."
Better do some practical experimentation on this one. Unless you are comparing a racing braking system with aluminum hats and multi-piston alloy calipers and alloy brackets to a factory drum set up, you're going to find that it is quite the reverse.

- "Drums contain heat within the system, whereas almost the entire disc is exposed to air to allow better cooling (And therefore fade resistance)."
You are somehow overlooking the design of a drum and how it dissipates heat. Drums radiate heat through the outer surface -of which there is quite a bit of. In the days before front discs were common...pre-1970, almost all drums - and in today's heavy duty applications, the drums have cooling fins as well to create a larger surface area for radiating heat. As to the issue of fade, which you correctly relate to heat but I don't think you understand it all that well, drum brake fade is the result of the heated drum expanding beyond the practical arc limit of the brake shoes. It takes quite a bit of hard use to achieve a level of fade that will cause you any problems. Anyone who drove a four-wheel drum brake car (as I did as a teen) back in the "good ol' days" can probably relate that it wasn't that poor of an experience -as the car magazines would have you believe. A properly maintained drum brake system will work just as well a disc system up to the point of fade. If you want to get a better understanding of this, investigate the drum systems used on Ferarri in the 50s for their LeMans cars and the '63 Corvette Z06. And the modulation of discs or drums has more to do with driver skill rather than brake design. If that were not the case, then it would not be possible to safely drive a drum brake car on snow or in the rain. We seemed to do it pretty well back then.

- "I go to an automotive engineering school where we design this kind of stuff for use on all kinds of vehicles."
So?

- "Where as drums are adequate for most cars, and most driving styles, some people (Me) like to push their cars to the limit, and discs are better for this."
Well most people (not me) don't own a Corvette (four-wheel discs with big honkin' 12" ventilated discs, four-piston fixed calipers, stainless lines, and carbon pads) and don't really know what it's like to push their car to the limit and never will.

Good luck on your Autocrossing.
Gerry

[WeeeZer14]

Originally posted by ssicarman
Semi short explanation.
During regular everday driving the front wheels do 90 % of the driving, there is always 105 of the power passed to the rear wheels.All torque regulation to the rear wheels is based on a difference in the speed between the propshaft (which is linked to the front drive system) and the rear wheels.When the front axle speed exceeds the rear axle speed the rear diff is activated through the use of an oil pump in the diff housing that begins to activate a clutch pack gives the rear wheels more torque. As the speed difference equalizes the torque difference returns to normal.

sscicarman, do you know of a web site with this info published? I couldn't find the AWD system on gmpowertrain.com and Saturn's site doesn't say too much beyond "powers the front wheels during normal driving on smooth, dry roads. If they slip, power flows to the rear wheels automatically."

By the way, gmpowertrain.com does have some good info on the VTi Transmission (http://www.gm.com/automotive/gmpowertrain/transmissions/vti/apps.htm)

[DesertPuma]

Originally posted by OhioVueBoy
Thank you! I thought I was the only one on here that doesn't mind drum brakes, and don't understand why everyone gripes about them.
~D.J.~

I am of the same opinion DJ, and what's more.

1. Disc Brakes are more expensive to implement (driving up MSRP)
2. '' " " " " to maintain
3. " " " " " to repair
4. " " " " " PERIOD!
5. " " leave a nasty black residue on your rims (no kidding I was washing the car the other day, and couldn't help but notice how much more brake dust were on the front wheels as opposed to the back) :rolleyes:
6. It's also my understanding that Disc Brakes require more "babying" (maintenance) than drums.

New Technology is great, but there is a lot to be said for certain older technologies as well.

Qlara, c'mon, who looks at Disc Brakes and says "oh those look nice".:rolleyes:. To me that's like opening the hood and looking at the air filter "oh that looks nice". No one can see either when your moving 65 down the freeway. :D

[ssicarman]

Originally posted by WeeeZer14
sscicarman, do you know of a web site with this info published? I couldn't find the AWD system on gmpowertrain.com and Saturn's site doesn't say too much beyond "powers the front wheels during normal driving on smooth, dry roads. If they slip, power flows to the rear wheels automatically."

By the way, gmpowertrain.com does have some good info on the VTi Transmission (http://www.gm.com/automotive/gmpowertrain/transmissions/vti/apps.htm)


Sorry don't know of a site. That info is from a manual of a training course that I took.

[ProDarwin]

Originally posted by Gerry Proctor
- Anyone who drove a four-wheel drum brake car (as I did as a teen) back in the "good ol' days" can probably relate that it wasn't that poor of an experience -as the car magazines would have you believe.

Very true. There was a WHOLE lot of fade on my '74 valiant.

[Qlara]

Originally posted by DesertPuma
Qlara, c'mon, who looks at Disc Brakes and says "oh those look nice". To me that's like opening the hood and looking at the air filter "oh that looks nice". No one can see either when your moving 65 down the freeway.

I'm totally not agree to that. Look at these beauties.....you've got to open up and see more. :D

Who said showing off the Motor is a bad thing?
http://www.ferrari.it/ferrari/images/enzo/780x490/top.jpg

And what will DRUMs do to this beauty?
http://www.ferrari.it/ferrari/images/575m_maranello/780x490/side.jpg

[OhioVueBoy]

Originally posted by Qlara
I'm totally not agree to that. Look at these beauties.....you've got to open up and see more. :D

Who said showing off the Motor is a bad thing?
http://www.ferrari.it/ferrari/images/enzo/780x490/top.jpg

And what will DRUMs do to this beauty?
http://www.ferrari.it/ferrari/images/575m_maranello/780x490/side.jpg
Yes, Qlara, but you forgot one important thing. We drive Saturns, not Ferraris :D
~D.J.~

[Qlara]

OhioVueBoy:
You're right we're just driving Saturns, not Ferraris....but that doesn't mean our cars CAN'T be look good by showing off 4-disc?

These Ferrari pics just for demonstration purpose, we can see more nice looking Saturn with 4-disc in our fans photo album. :D

[OhioVueBoy]

Originally posted by Qlara
OhioVueBoy:
You're right we're just driving Saturns, not Ferraris....but that doesn't mean our cars CAN'T be look good by showing off 4-disc?

These Ferrari pics just for demonstration purpose, we can see more nice looking Saturn with 4-disc in our fans photo album. :D
The rear discs are the size of saucers... I mean come on, they're not any less functional than my drums for instance. I can see if this were a Jetta with 11 inch front rotors and like 9 inch rears, but ya know, we're not stopping that heavy of a vehicle.
~D.J.~

[saturn-pilgrim]

Gerry,

Your explanation of drums versus discs for the consumer purpose for which the Vue is designed is perfectly correct. In all likelihood, the brake fade that ProDarwin was experiencing was due to the front discs and not due to the rear drums as front-engined, front-wheeled drive cars bear the majority of braking force on the front wheels (just as motorcycles do).

As for ProDarwin who was keen on pushing the Vue to the limit, perhaps a different choice of vehicle is on order to fulfill his driving passions so that his repeated braking requirements will not overwhelm the Vue's drum\disk combination. ;)

[white95SL1]

On the topic of drum brakes, there is MUCH more pedal fade in my '66 Comet with 4 wheel drums after a lot of braking. I assume it's the drum brakes. But I can't tell any difference between my dad's '93 SL1 with 4 wheel discs and my '01 SC1 with rear drums. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've read that the problem with drum brakes is that they can't be ventilated as well as discs because water will get in them and cause problems (brake failure :dazed: ).

[ProDarwin]

Wow, old thread!

pilgrim... the fade I was talking about was not on my Saturn. While I have had fade in it, plenty of it, when this thread was created I still drove an SW2 with 4 wheel discs. The fade was simply because I didn't have the right compound pads on it.

Now I have the coupe, with rear drums, and yes they suck, and are a pain in the ass to work with, and will be replaced with discs asap. My main concern now is balancing the car, and it is much easier to use the same pad all the way around with discs, because there aren't many performance shoes for drum brakes.