Lame AWD

[newbievueowner]

Well, after doing a search and reading the couple of posts about poor AWD performance I decided to give my AWD a try on the wet grassy hill beside my house. Not impressed. :upset: I realize the fronts wheels are supposed to spin before the back wheels will kick in to help drive but I don't think it did anything. I just sat there spinning the front tires (10-15 MPH??) in the grass and could not climb the hill. The weird thing is I tried driving backwards and the AWD seems to kick in because I can see the rears wheels spinning a little and it has A LOT more grip allowing me to climb better! So what is going on here?? Why won't the AWD system activate going forward up the hill but seems to when you drive it backwards up the hill?? This could be a short lived purchase. I bought it for the AWD in the winter and plan on towing a sled trailer. If the AWD does not work at all then I may as well have just bought a FWD car to tow for crying out loud and get a lot better gas mileage! :x
I wish I would have done more research and found this site BEFORE I purchased the vehicle. I need to figure out how to make this thing work! I don't expect it to work like an Audi or Subaru AWD but I do expect it to do something. If anyone has any ideas, I'm all ears.

[Ritz]

Yep, the AWD system is really not very useful. Saturn is very coy about accurately describing how the system works. Had I known the truth (basically, it's my own fault for just taking the AWD moniker at face value without doing any research), I also wouldn't have purchased a VUE. Live and learn.

If you want better traction, punt the stock tires. The Bridgestone Duelers are awful.

Cheers,

[newbievueowner]

But the bad tires should not effect traction to this extent. Like I said, it didn't do crap going forward up the hill but could climb going backwards (in reverse) up the hill. Why?? I think I may take the cover off the RDM (hopefully it has one) to see what is going on in there. What EXACTLY did GM change with the new RDM design starting in late 04 & MY2005 Vue's? Do any other RDM's work better (ie: EQ, torrent)? I read somewhere that the spring to activate the gerotor/clutch pack was made stiffer so it would not engage all the time? Is this all that was changed? Anyone have any experience with the 08 electronic AWD?? I may have to look at possibly retroing in some other rear diff if I can't make this current one perform. Because if it doesn't climb out of the snowy, hilly driveway at our cottage towing a trailer then it's not really much good to me. :|

[Swishguy]

With decent tires I could barely tow a double sled trailer & 2 sleds up a hill but it was a battle. the versatrak is a joke. i just bought a hilander & the awd system is no comparison as would be the 08 electronic system. the vue system is also very weak & i replaced 6 units on 4 vues i have owned.

[VTchemist]

I have used my VUE to climb snowy hills. I was running Michelins and not the Duelers. I also have driven my VUE up a grassy hill just last week. The front does spin first, then the rear kicks in. Same thing happens on the snow.

The AWD on the VUE is not the best. It's not like a dedicated 4WD system, but it's better than FWD on snow (in the hills of SW VA).

Some folks have very good performance with their FWD with go snow tires. But FWD could not get me home in prior cars (even with chains). The VUE did not fail me.

Tires do make a difference. The OEM Duelers are not know for their traction.

My AWD is an 03.

[newbievueowner]

I also have driven my VUE up a grassy hill just last week. The front does spin first, then the rear kicks in. Same thing happens on the snow.

My AWD is an 03.

This could have something to do with it (in bold).

I'm thinking there must be something wrong with my unit or something. It doesn't make any noises at all when driving but it just does not work period. Is the 03 RDM a different design than the 05's? Or would it bolt right in? What I would really like to do is see if the RDM from the 08 Vue would work (ie: fit into the space restriction) in the 04-07's and then just use it via a push button on the dash to engage the rear diff clutch packs when needed (since it's electronically activated). 4WD basically when required. I think I'm going to go to a Saturn dealer and take some pics of the RDM to see if this would be possible. Because the way it is now is an absolute joke. I have no problem with it taking a second for the RDM to kick in but it is doing absolutely nothing for me at the moment. I just sat there and spun the front wheels for about 6-8 seconds when trying to go forward, yet it seems to work/engage going in reverse. Something strange going on here. Guess I will just have to back the trailer out of the drive in the winter?? LOL! That would probably be Saturn's answer. LOL! :D

[Ritz]

This could have something to do with it (in bold).

I'm thinking there must be something wrong with my unit or something. It doesn't make any noises at all when driving but it just does not work period. Is the 03 RDM a different design than the 05's? Or would it bolt right in? What I would really like to do is see if the RDM from the 08 Vue would work (ie: fit into the space restriction) in the 04-07's and then just use it via a push button on the dash to engage the rear diff clutch packs when needed (since it's electronically activated). 4WD basically when required. I think I'm going to go to a Saturn dealer and take some pics of the RDM to see if this would be possible. Because the way it is now is an absolute joke. I have no problem with it taking a second for the RDM to kick in but it is doing absolutely nothing for me at the moment. I just sat there and spun the front wheels for about 6-8 seconds when trying to go forward, yet it seems to work/engage going in reverse. Something strange going on here. Guess I will just have to back the trailer out of the drive in the winter?? LOL! That would probably be Saturn's answer. LOL! :D

Perhaps your RDM is not engaging. Believe me, when it engages you'll KNOW. It will jolt the vehicle and bang into operation. Before owning the VUE I had driven Audis with the quattro AWD system for years. That is probably the best AWD system on the planet so I'm perhaps a bit spoiled, but the VUE AWD system just plain doesn't work well.

As for the Duelers, they are indeed *really* bad in the rain and snow. If you drive a lot in the winter and you get a lot of snow, I'd highly recommend a dedicated set of snows. Even with snow tires, the VUE's AWD system is still pretty weak, but I'll agree with the poster above and say that it's probably better than nothing. (if you're starving, a White Castle burger will do if there's no real food around)

Good luck with your new (to you) VUE.

Cheers,

[RobertJ]

Really, there's no replacement for a locking center differential for taking off from snow covered surfaces or off road conditions. AWD isn't really designed for off road at all to be honest. Our Jeep Liberty with traction control and SelecTrac is a beast off road and in the snow. I've had two WRXs with the limited slip rear differential and AWD, and there's no comparasion as the Jeep wins hands down.

My point is, no AWD system is going to replace a true locking center differential vehicle. They're great for the average Joe though, but if you're trying to pull a trailor in the snow, you could do better in a vehicle that has off road in mind.

[newbievueowner]

While I agree that 4WD is/should be better than AWD here is my problem. As Ritz said (and I have been saying) it doesn't seem like the RDM is engaging period. I feel nothing for engagement and go no where driving forward up the hill, just sit there spinning the front wheels. But it will climb the same hill going backwards so.....? Is there a check valve in there that's not working properly or something? Oil moving away from the pickup in the forward position not allowing it to suck/pump oil?

What EXACTLY was changed in the post 2004 RDM's?? Does anyone know for sure?? I read a stiffer spring for higher/later AWD engagement? This would make sense but I wonder where it is exactly located? I see that it looks like the RDM cover has some sort of chassis mount associated with it, nice. Why can't it just be simple like my 1991 Chev full size P/U! Just remove 10 bolts in the rear diff cover and it pops off. :yes:

That's part of the reason I want to look at the 08 RDM from the Vue. If it can electronically engage the rear diff via voltage applied to the clutch pack thru a switch triggered by the driver that would be the best for me. When climbing hills or starting off I could engage it and once cruising down the road just switch it off. I will have to take some pics to see how different the shape/size is and where the drive shaft input is located, etc.

[newbievueowner]

So do we know for sure that the 08 Vue AWD system is greatly improved and if it is in fact electronically controlled to activate clutch packs in the RDM?? Went to the dealer today and got some pics. Looks like it 'may' just fit with some custom engineering work. Have to do some homework here... but want to make sure it's worth it (ie: the new system actually works really good).

[BobbyP]

So do we know for sure that the 08 Vue AWD system is greatly improved and if it is in fact electronically controlled to activate clutch packs in the RDM?? Went to the dealer today and got some pics. Looks like it 'may' just fit with some custom engineering work. Have to do some homework here... but want to make sure it's worth it (ie: the new system actually works really good).

Someone here posted that the 08 VUE's AWD system was the same as the Outlook's.

[Ritz]

Someone here posted that the 08 VUE's AWD system was the same as the Outlook's.

I have the feeling that a "retrofit" isn't feasible due to a lot of software in the ECM/ABS/TCM that will get confused when their "friends" are replaced with items that speak Andorian instead of Klingon. Making sure things physically fit together is only a tiny piece of the puzzle.

Cheers,

[Swishguy]

versatrak is stone age technology based on a slipping clutch. The new awd is based on electronic sensors & is pro-active vs retro-active.

[MrHorspwer]

it doesn't seem like the RDM is engaging period.

Was somebody outside the vehicle actually watching the rear wheels? Rather than jumping to conclusions, why not take is a second person and verify if the wheels aren't actually spinning?

If the rear wheels are spinning and the truck still isn't moving up your hill, it is 100% the tire's fault. If the coefficient of friction is so low that the tires can't find sufficient traction to move the vehicle mass up the hill, you're going nowhere. You can't have the most elaborate AWD or 4WD system on earth, but if a tire can't find enough friction to move the mass you're requesting and it slips instead, you stay at the bottom of the hill.

Don't underestimate grass either. Slightly damp grass is incredibly slick. I've seen grassy hills stop Land Rovers in their tracks.

Someone here posted that the 08 VUE's AWD system was the same as the Outlook's.

This is correct. The AWD system in the 2008 Vue is shared with the Outlook/Acadia/Enclave.

The new awd is based on electronic sensors & is pro-active vs retro-active.

While the new system does have the capabilities for preemptive engagement (engagement prior to slippage occuring), it is largely a reactive system which does not engage until slip is detected. It will preemptivly engage based on AWD system duty cycle (recent engagement activity) and torque request. If the system sees a quick spike in torque request and knows it's been engaged fairly steadily, it will engage in the anticipation of a traction loss.

Needless to say, this is a small minority of AWD engagements.

The system remains primarily a reactive system, comparing front and rear wheel speed inputs to determine when to engage the system. Unlike the old system, it engages electro-mechanically instead of hydraulically.

[newbievueowner]

Was somebody outside the vehicle actually watching the rear wheels? Rather than jumping to conclusions, why not take is a second person and verify if the wheels aren't actually spinning?

If the rear wheels are spinning and the truck still isn't moving up your hill, it is 100% the tire's fault. If the coefficient of friction is so low that the tires can't find sufficient traction to move the vehicle mass up the hill, you're going nowhere..

Just me in the vehicle. But what I am saying is that I turned the vehicle around and went up the exact same hilly section in reverse. This is what I don't understand. I will try the hill climb again when it rains and have someone watch to see if either rear tire is spinning (when driving forward). I know the rear wheel was spinning a little going up backwards because I had my head sticking out the window and could see it turning. Maybe you are onto something. Maybe with the extra weight on the front wheels when driving backwards, even the crappy Bridgestone tires managed to get enough grip to climb. Just not in forward drive.

[newbievueowner]

I have the feeling that a "retrofit" isn't feasible due to a lot of software in the ECM/ABS/TCM that will get confused when their "friends" are replaced with items that speak Andorian instead of Klingon. Making sure things physically fit together is only a tiny piece of the puzzle.

Cheers,

LOL! Klingon. :)

I still may see what I can do as I have some contacts at GM that work on the Vue platform. I will see if I can get a drawing or two to compare the housing geometry bewteen the old and new platforms. I just want to use a push button switch on the dash to activate the rears wheels when I want to. I don't see why this wouldn't work. Just apply voltage to the RDM via the switch. Still ticked though that I would have to even think about doing this to make the AWD work decently.

[burnout]

02-07 and 08+ Vues are based on completely different platforms I'm pretty sure.

I'm doubtful that this is even close to possible.

[newbievueowner]

02-07 and 08+ Vues are based on completely different platforms I'm pretty sure.

I'm doubtful that this is even close to possible.

I never said it would be a direct drop in or easy....

Custom brackets would need to be fabbed to get it to fit. Probably need to have the drive shaft length adjusted, etc, etc. That's why I would need the drawings to see if it's possible first. I don't want to gather all the stuff and then find out that it would not work. If the prelim research looks good then I will have to see if I can get my hands on a 2008 unit (with the help of my contacts of course).

Tom, I do have several car stands and a couple jacks so I could try that but I think I'm going to do the grass hill climb again when it rains and have someone stand there and watch the rear wheels in order to see exactly what they are doing.

[newbievueowner]

Not sure how my post(s) got placed ahead of yours.... :xeye:

[Tom92SCm]

Do you have a way to get all 4 wheels safely and securely in the air at once? This would be the easiest way to tell if the RDM was kicking in.

[newbievueowner]

Well further to the story, it rained this morning so on the way into work I decided to punch the throttle to get the tires to spin. The fronts did spin and then I heard a bit of a noise (not tooooo bad) and then it seemed to bite and go. I see what you are saying about the delay though after getting the front tires spinning. So it appears that the AWD works, it's just not THAT good. LOL! I'm also wondering if the oil was being transfered away from the pickup in the RDM or something when trying to climb the hill. Looks like a set of damn tires is in order for the winter. :mad:

I'm still going to try and do the research on this 2008 RDM. It's underway.....

[Tom92SCm]

My guess is that it was all the tire's lack of traction on the grass before.

[1saxman]

'What EXACTLY was changed in the post 2004 RDM's??'

The bypass spring. They used a stiffer spring so it took more pressure to engage the clutch. Hence, a delayed and jerky engagement. The original system was fine, with an immediate and smooth engagement, but Saturn had to replace many under warranty because guys were abusing them by spinning wheels on dry pavement ('dirt-tracking' around corners, etc.).

'But what I am saying is that I turned the vehicle around and went up the exact same hilly section in reverse.'

I suspect your RDM is not working right. When you went up in reverse it was because the front wheels were getting more weight on them and gained traction. Change the Versatrak fluid in the RDM and make sure it has the right amount in it.

'So it appears that the AWD works, it's just not THAT good.'

I still think the fluid is low, incorrect or needs changing.

They made a mistake in calling the Versatrak system in the VUE 'AWD', although it is true that any of the four wheels can drive. It would be more accurately called 'On-Demand Rear Wheel Drive Assist', but that wouldn't work well in the showroom. But, it will get you going on a slick surface. The biggest lie in the auto world is the myth of full-time AWD being of some use in regular driving - it isn't. If it was, every race car would be AWD. While there are some AWD race cars, and have been for decades, they are mostly sucessful on unpaved roads, like in rallies. AWD has no utility in regular driving on dry pavement. So, that makes the Versatrak system quite an elegant solution, since it automatically engages only when needed, without any switch or lever, then automatically disengages when its not needed, all without any operator input. Its just too bad they had to change it for survivability out in the real world of idiots.

[newbievueowner]

You're right, if it engaged sooner (like the 2003 and early 2004 RDM units) then it work much better. What I really wish it had was just a manually activaed E-locker in the RDM. That would be the best for slippery/off-road conditions and winter towing. Push the button and it locks both rear axles. You can see this on the Eaton website, they are very slick. Hummer and Jeep use this unit in their rear end.

[MrHorspwer]

Hummer and Jeep use this unit in their rear end.

Both Hummer and Jeep only allow you to lock the axle when in 4LO. Both disengage at speeds over 20 MPH (if you have a Wrangler Rubicon with a locking front diff, it's an even lower speed).

For a vehicle not intended for off-road driving, like a Vue, a locking differential adds nothing that couldn't be accomplished with a limited slip differential or even the original twin-gerotor Versatrak AWD system used in the Rendevouz, Aztek, and minivans (the Vue uses a single-gerotor system, though retained the Versatrak marketing name).

Locking differentials really come into their own in sand, mud, and situations where a wheel may be completely lifted from the ground.

[newbievueowner]

To say that a limited slip diff would even be in the same leauge as a locker is false IMO. While the Jeep and Hummer units may disengage at speeds above 20 MPH, there are a lot of guys using the aftermarket Eaton E-lockers in high performance applications (basically as a posi) at high speeds. Once they are locked they can handle the power, you are just not supposed to lock them at speeds above 10 or 20 mph I think it is as this can be hard on the balls/roller ramp. For me, I bought this vehicle for winter use (and to tow with in the winter). I'm not going to off-road, but it needs to be able to get traction up the icy hills and in snow storms, etc. Other than that I don't need the AWD any other time. I'm having doubts that it will be adeqaute for winter towing but I may be wrong. I guess I will find out next winter.

[newbievueowner]

One other question, does anyone know if GM used the single or dual gerotor versatrak system in the Saturn Relay as well as the Torrent/Equinox??

[MrHorspwer]

One other question, does anyone know if GM used the single or dual gerotor versatrak system in the Saturn Relay as well as the Torrent/Equinox??


Vue/Equinox/Torrent = Single gerotor

Aztek/Rendevouz/Relay/Montana/Uplander/Terraza = Dual gerotor

[newbievueowner]

Thanks Mr. HP. And do you (or anyone else) know if the dual rotor design is much better perfromance wise than the single that's in the Vue?

[MrHorspwer]

And do you (or anyone else) know if the dual rotor design is much better perfromance wise than the single that's in the Vue?

The dual-gerotor system is still limited by it's engagement method. It doesn't engage until slip in the front wheels is detected. The dual-gerotor system does do a better job with torque management though.

The single-gerotor system uses a single gerotor and clutch pack between the propellor shaft and the pinion gear. When a rotational speed difference is noticed between the prop shaft and either rear drive axle, the gerotor pump spins up and applies the clutches. This connects the prop shaft and the pinion gear, engaging the rear axle. Once engage, it pushes the power into essentially an open differential.

The dual-gerotor system places a clutch pack at each of the drive axle outputs and vary clutch control independent of one another. Instead of the gerotor pump controlling the power input, each pump controls the power output for its respective side. This, in effect, turns the rear differential into a limited slip differential, allowing differing power distribution between the rear wheels.

Does it make a difference? I can't say. There's been at least a 2-3 years gap between the last time I drove a twin-gerotor system (in an Aztek) and when I got my wife's Vue.

Why did GM stop using the system? Cost. Take the most expensive parts of on-demand AWD, the gerotor pump and clutch pack, and double it for the twin-gerotor system.

GM instead chose to jump to an ECU controlled system which uses an electronically controlled clutch. As an added bonus, with an ECU controlling the action, the system can now be predictibly integrated into stability and traction control systems.

[newbievueowner]

Does it make a difference? I can't say. There's been at least a 2-3 years gap between the last time I drove a twin-gerotor system (in an Aztek) and when I got my wife's Vue.

That's too bad because it's this info I'm looking for (single vs dual gerotor). I can tell you this, the clutch packs and gerotor sets cost GM next to nothing to purchase (though you would never know this based on their service replacement prices). I work for a company that makes engine and transmission oil pumps for the OEM's so I know roughly what the parts cost. For them to cheap out for the sake of say $100 (that they are already charging you for the AWD option) and have a subpar system is totally unacceptable IMHO. I see what happens behind the scenes and it is ALL related to cost and it makes me sick.

I'm still checking into the 08 unit but I don't think it's going to be that easy to get info from my buddy. He looked on the GM system and can not find any drawings what so ever (for the 05 stuff). Until I can verify the packaging space dimensions and exact details on how the new system operates, I can not take the chance and just start spending $$$$. I know that it operates via a DC motor and the ECM adjusts the current to the motor depending on the requirement (slippage). Which means if you apply a certain voltage/current to it then you should be able to get it to lock into more of a limited slip diff (with hopefully both rear wheels driving).

[newbievueowner]

Has anyone ever driven a vehicle with the dual rotor Versatrak and how does it compare to the single in the Vue? Much better or no?

One other question, did the Vue always come with the single gerotor? Or were they the dual in say 2002/2003?

[newbievueowner]

Here's another tricky technical question (likely for someone who works at a Saturn dealership) - does anyone know if the gear sets from the single rotor versatrak are the same/interchangeable with the twin rotor verstrak system that's in the Buick? Kind of like a standard 10 bolt, 8 1/2" Chevy rear end gear. Something tells me that nothing is common or standard on these vehicles like the good old days. :dizzy:

[newbievueowner]

TTT. This question (above) is likely higher than most peoples knowledge of this vehicle but I thought I would ask. Anyone that works at a Saturn dealership know?

[MrHorspwer]

does anyone know if the gear sets from the single rotor versatrak are the same/interchangeable with the twin rotor verstrak system that's in the Buick?

No, they are not.

[newbievueowner]

And I suppose an aftermarket gear set is out of the question too?

[Dante]

Wow this is pretty good info here. I've been suffering through the Vue's AWD for years now, and didn't know a lot in this thread.

I knew that the Aztek and Astro vans had Versatrak AWD systems, but wasn't sure how they were different. I never heard people complain about those AWD systems as much as we complain about the one in the Vue, but that apparently has more to do with the dual gerotor system they had, vs. the single in the Vue. Sure would be cool to get a rear diff out of a low-mileage Aztek and strap it into a Vue, but I doubt it would fit. :(

I've found that if I change the (quite pricey) Versatrak fluid about every 10k miles, it works pretty well (for a little while). It goes in basically clear, and comes out looking like molasses, or motor oil with a couple thousand miles on it. It's sad, really. I sent a sample in to Blackstone labs and they said there was a LOT of metal in the fluid. My guess is that the gears are just shearing themselves to pieces. My RDM makes an *awful* grinding shuddering noise when it engages, like on a very slick road when I punch it. It used to work pretty good, but for the last ~30k it just kinda sux.

When Saturn replaced my first RDM late in the Summer of 04, they put in the exact same unit as it came with. Within a couple months of that, they started replacing it with the (even more) lame '05 setup. They had it in that December for the "rear lateral links" recall and demanded I let them put in the new RDM. I told them to stuff it and they said "fine, but we'll note this in your permanent record" or something like that, that I declined to have the "voluntary recall" done. At that point, the thing still worked fine! It wasn't until about 10k miles later that it started really sucking and making all the bad groaning noises when it gets used.

Good luck on the diff swap. I'd really like to be able to flip a switch and have a locked rear diff! Even if at that point I had an even 50/50 power split, or even 80/20 with no lag and wheel spin, that would be SO much better than 2-3 seconds of front wheel spin, followed by a groan and lurch.

[newbievueowner]

I'm still working on it. I'll let you know if there is anything that can be done or not. The best thing would be if I could get a replacement gear set and just swap it into the dual gerotor Versatrak but I doubt that they exist. That way it would still be a full mechanical system but would work much better. I posted in the Relay forum and one of the guys responded and said that his dual G AWD system is a bear in the snow and makes no noise when it engages. That would be real nice.....

[zeusws6]

Not sure if you have seen this, but here is an SAE article on the twin-gerotor:
http://www.sae.org/automag/techbriefs/05-2002/

[newbievueowner]

Yea, I've seen it but thanks anyway for the link

[Dante]

I'm still working on it. I'll let you know if there is anything that can be done or not. The best thing would be if I could get a replacement gear set and just swap it into the dual gerotor Versatrak but I doubt that they exist. That way it would still be a full mechanical system but would work much better. I posted in the Relay forum and one of the guys responded and said that his dual G AWD system is a bear in the snow and makes no noise when it engages. That would be real nice.....

Yeah, best case scenario would be to be able to go to a parts yard, tear the rear diff out of another GM car and slap it into the Vue and upgrade to a dual-pump rear diff. I would even be willing to swap out internals and keep the existing housing, if it worked.

This weekend I plan to do some work on the Vue, and a rear diff fluid change is on the list. I'm afraid to see it after ~15K miles (I think).

[newbievueowner]

I would even be willing to swap out internals and keep the existing housing, if it worked.


I know this would not be possible...

The whole unit would have to be retrofitted in.

[MrHorspwer]

knew that the Aztek and Astro vans had Versatrak AWD systems

The Astro didn't use a Versatrak system. The Astro used a regular New Venture Gear transfer case, like any 4WD truck, but in place of the planetary gearset, a viscous coupler was used. This system was also used in the AWD mid-size utilities (Buick Reiner, Olds Bravada, and Trailblazer SS come directly to mind, though there may be more).

The Montana, Terraza, Outlook, and Venture mini-vans used the Versatrak system.

[Dante]

The Astro didn't use a Versatrak system. The Astro used a regular New Venture Gear transfer case, like any 4WD truck, but in place of the planetary gearset, a viscous coupler was used. This system was also used in the AWD mid-size utilities (Buick Reiner, Olds Bravada, and Trailblazer SS come directly to mind, though there may be more).

The Montana, Terraza, Outlook, and Venture mini-vans used the Versatrak system.

I stand corrected! LOL

[Dante]

I know this would not be possible...

The whole unit would have to be retrofitted in.

Which, according to your research, would require what sort of fabrication work to make it happen? Different driveshaft and/or half-shafts? Mounting brackets? All of the above? *sigh*

[1saxman]

The first thing to consider is gear ratio and whether or not its the same as the host vehicle final drive. Once that's determined you can start concentrating on fitment.

[newbievueowner]

Exactly, that's the problem, the gear ratio needs to be the same! If it's not it would have to be changed or even a custom gear set (ring & pinion) made. The rest would just be fabbing up some mount brackets and likely adjusting the drive shaft length. This would not be cheap to do though, I'm guessing somwhere around $1000-2000 by the time it's all said and done (and that's probably with me doing most of the work). :upset: This is why I'm ticked (PG version) at GM for pulling this lame stunt with the Vue's Versatrak system. :x :hothead:

My buddies back from vacation now so I will continue with the information quest.

[guitarzan]

I've become interested in this story since once I slid into the ditch (in a snowstorm) (off the Interstate) (in the city) on my Dueler "ditch grabbers", and I couldn't get out cuz the back wheels didn't help, and because it's 3 pages long. Probably could have been 2 without all the repetition and factless opinion.

What happened with the wet grassy hill experiment with someone watching? Did the wheels spin? what happened after you topped off/replaced the fluid?
I have yet to fall into a ditch with my new Goodyear Assurance's. If I think of it on a rainy day, I'll try a wet grassy hill and try to watch the rear wheels.

[newbievueowner]

Give it a try, I'm sure you will find the AWD system sub-standard even with your Goodyear tires.

I have no further update, my buddy no longer works at GM (was given a package) so I can't get any information now. I would really love to get my hands on an 08 AWD rear sub-section and play around with it though!

[Taipans]

This is horrible! I had no idea the AWD system was completely useless. I have a 2006 and was hoping it would at least get me through a few snows we have here each season! Does it do anything at all on packed snowy surfaces? I was always under the impression that the AWD system was always running, hence why it seems to wind down so quickly when letting off the gas.

:no:

[Ritz]

This is horrible! I had no idea the AWD system was completely useless. I have a 2006 and was hoping it would at least get me through a few snows we have here each season! Does it do anything at all on packed snowy surfaces? I was always under the impression that the AWD system was always running, hence why it seems to wind down so quickly when letting off the gas.

:no:

Heh. Saturn is intentionally very vague about how the AWD system functions. It's front wheel drive UNTIL there is marked slippage in the front wheels. Then (and only then) will the rear wheels kick in (and in an abrupt manner). Combine that with the excessive torque steer when the fronts slip and it makes for a pretty squirrelly ride in slippery conditions. I would recommend a set of snowtires for the winter. Even then, it's only marginally better than front wheel drive. The Saturn AWD system is a total waste of money, if you ask me. Driving in the snow with the stock Duelers is just asking for trouble. Those things absolutely suck in the rain so I can't even imagine how bad they'd be in the white stuff.

Welcome to the club. I was pretty annoyed when I discovered the "fine print" on how the "AWD" system really functions (or doesn't function) too.

Cheers,

[Taipans]

Great! Thanks for the welcome! :p

Honestly I have no idea what type of tires are on it, they seem fairly new. So my choices for the snow are the AWD Vue, or my wifes VW Jetta... which would you guys take?

EDIT:

Ok I went to find out exactly what tires I have this is what they say,

Bridgestone Turanza EL 400 - Treadwear Traction Temp A

Are these factory and the ones I keep reading horror stories on?

[froggy81500]

Heh. Saturn is intentionally very vague about how the AWD system functions. It's front wheel drive UNTIL there is marked slippage in the front wheels. Then (and only then) will the rear wheels kick in (and in an abrupt manner). Combine that with the excessive torque steer when the fronts slip and it makes for a pretty squirrelly ride in slippery conditions. I would recommend a set of snowtires for the winter. Even then, it's only marginally better than front wheel drive. The Saturn AWD system is a total waste of money, if you ask me. Driving in the snow with the stock Duelers is just asking for trouble. Those things absolutely suck in the rain so I can't even imagine how bad they'd be in the white stuff.

Welcome to the club. I was pretty annoyed when I discovered the "fine print" on how the "AWD" system really functions (or doesn't function) too.

Cheers,

Our issues aside, are you serious that this is how their AWD functions? That is beyond lame, its not AWD its more or less a traction control system. AWD should be functioning all the time. Leave it to GM to come up with this.

[Ritz]

Great! Thanks for the welcome! :p

Honestly I have no idea what type of tires are on it, they seem fairly new. So my choices for the snow are the AWD Vue, or my wifes VW Jetta... which would you guys take?

EDIT:

Ok I went to find out exactly what tires I have this is what they say,

Bridgestone Turanza EL 400 - Treadwear Traction Temp A

Are these factory and the ones I keep reading horror stories on?

Personally, I'd take the Jetta. :)

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Bridgestone&tireModel=Turanza+EL400

That's what tirerack.com buyers say about that tire. Ugh. If I were you, I'd invest in an extra set of rims and some snow tires for the winter. Those things are going to be ice skates in the snow.

Cheers,

[Taipans]

I checked them out, they seem to be pretty much the same thing. Fairly low scores for rain and snow, but good scores for dry road handling. Oh well, outside of finding out about that I do like it, and its hit and miss for us with snow. Hey at least with the poly panels I can "bounce" of of things I hit! :yes:

[Ritz]

I checked them out, they seem to be pretty much the same thing. Fairly low scores for rain and snow, but good scores for dry road handling. Oh well, outside of finding out about that I do like it, and its hit and miss for us with snow. Hey at least with the poly panels I can "bounce" of of things I hit! :yes:

I've edited my original post. Those are indeed pretty bleak. Check out the winter combination at tirerack.com for Sport Edition A7 rims (16x7.5) and Bridgestone Blizzak WS-60 tires. The package is a tad over $800. Well worth the money if you're going to be driving in the snow. When you consider the deductible plus the boning you'll take on a premium increase after an accident, I think it's money well spent. :)

Cheers,

[Taipans]

Would there be anything worth changing for all year? I drive a ton of miles yearly so these things wont last through to many seasons. I figure I could dump them and put some high end all seasons on there and be done with it.

[Ritz]

Would there be anything worth changing for all year? I drive a ton of miles yearly so these things wont last through to many seasons. I figure I could dump them and put some high end all seasons on there and be done with it.

Depends on your threshold of pain (in terms of dollars). Even the best all season tires aren't going to hold a candle to dedicated snows. I picked up a set for my wife's VUE and put the snows on from October-April. I'll probably get 3 seasons out of the snows. If you want to go with a good all season tire, the best bet would be something like the Kumho Solus KH16 ($90/tire) or the Goodyear Fortera Tripletred ($157/tire). The Goodyear is a much better tire, but almost twice as expensive.

Cheers,

[Tom92SCm]

Our issues aside, are you serious that this is how their AWD functions? That is beyond lame, its not AWD its more or less a traction control system. AWD should be functioning all the time. Leave it to GM to come up with this.

Yeppers. I remember when Ritz joined and was going on and on about his "AWD" VUE and how he should have kept his true AWD Audis. Good times.

[Ritz]

Yeppers. I remember when Ritz joined and was going on and on about his "AWD" VUE and how he should have kept his true AWD Audis. Good times.

Seems like yesterday. :) The wife loves the VUE (in the summer). I miss my A4 and A6. :( Shoulda kept one of them around as a winter beater.

Cheers,

[Tom92SCm]

Would there be anything worth changing for all year? I drive a ton of miles yearly so these things wont last through to many seasons. I figure I could dump them and put some high end all seasons on there and be done with it.

What kind of weather do you drive through? If you drive in areas that get snow or ice and you're on the road alot, then having a set of proper tires for someone like yourself is like me needing to have a desk chair that absorbs my farts. It's a must. Even if the areas you drive in don't get much snow or ice but still get cold, you can still benefit from a set of proper winter tires. Winter tires will remain softer in cold weather compared to all-season tires. And since those tire patches are your only connection to the ground, having the tire be softer and able to grip the road better is very important.

I have a set of Michelin X-Ice tires for winter time. They've been great in snow (Colorado snow) and ice (midwestern ice storms). Plus they wear really well even on dry roads. This winter will be their 3rd season. I have a feeling that I will probably get rid of them because they are too old instead of too worn out at the rate they seem to be wearing.

My all season tires are Yokohama Geolander H/T-S. I've been really happy with those as well.

[Taipans]

I live in St Louis, so we can get a mix of crap here. However its usually ice and sleet, which your screwed in anyways. I would say from Dec to Feb we get random sleet, ice and some light snows. Sometimes though we can get 6-8 inches with a rare 12+. But if it snows a foot here the city gets shut down. Snow isn't the everday norm though, and some years we only get a few light ones.

In any event if we do get a major snowfall it doesn't sound like I should be out trying to get around in the VUE anyhow, even with snow tires unless your saying its that big a difference. But the thought of changing the tires off every other day with no lift does not sound fun! :D

I was hoping there was some compromise for an all season that isn't pure garbage. I would say rain is the biggest enemy in our area, as we have had over 50 inches of it this year!

[froggy81500]

We get plenty of snow here in central NY. This past Valentine's day we got hammered with a 3FT snow storm. Its all a matter of how you drive. I got around fine in my Ion that is only front wheel drive. Of course, they plow pretty well around here, but even on some streets that had some snow built up, I got through it without getting stuck.

[Ritz]

I live in St Louis, so we can get a mix of crap here. However its usually ice and sleet, which your screwed in anyways. I would say from Dec to Feb we get random sleet, ice and some light snows. Sometimes though we can get 6-8 inches with a rare 12+. But if it snows a foot here the city gets shut down. Snow isn't the everday norm though, and some years we only get a few light ones.

In any event if we do get a major snowfall it doesn't sound like I should be out trying to get around in the VUE anyhow, even with snow tires unless your saying its that big a difference. But the thought of changing the tires off every other day with no lift does not sound fun! :D

I was hoping there was some compromise for an all season that isn't pure garbage. I would say rain is the biggest enemy in our area, as we have had over 50 inches of it this year!

Heh. People generally put the snows on in late fall and take them off in the spring. I change mine in my garage with a floor jack. It only takes about 20 minutes.

Cheers,

[Taipans]

In my ignorance I was thinking they should only be driven when there is snow! :arr:

But if I stick them on and it doesnt snow for months is it bad to drive on them? Or is road noise the only issue?

[froggy81500]

In my ignorance I was thinking they should only be driven when there is snow! :arr:

But if I stick them on and it doesnt snow for months is it bad to drive on them? Or is road noise the only issue?

Some people around here drive all year long with snows on. There is no issue using them if you want to. Studded snows on the other hand are illegal to have them on your vehicle during certain months. I think they have to come off here April 1st.

[Ritz]

In my ignorance I was thinking they should only be driven when there is snow! :arr:

But if I stick them on and it doesnt snow for months is it bad to drive on them? Or is road noise the only issue?

Just a bit more road noise and they will wear faster since they are made from a softer compound. If your husband wants/needs the exercise you can certainly put them on and take them off at will. Like I said, I manage to swap mine in about 20 minutes with just a floor jack. On average, we seem to put about 5000 miles on the VUE during winter months so I figure I'll get three winter seasons out of the snows before I need to replace them. Personally, I consider the cost and the slight PITA to be inconsequential compared to the increased safety offered by snow tires in the winter. At the end of the day, my wife and kids are usually the passengers in the VUE so anything I can do to increase the safety of the vehicle is a no brainer.

Cheers,

[Tom92SCm]

I live in St Louis, so we can get a mix of crap here..........

I used to live in Wichita, KS so we got about the same type of weather that St Louis does.

My driveway was fairly steep and was on the north side of my house, so any snow not shoveled off the driveway would stay there. And the snow that stayed would usually turn to ice. My Michelin X-Ice tires (recommended to me by a Tire Rack sales tech who was familiar with the winter weather in KS) and wheels showed up from Tire Rack during a sleet storm. I remember spinning the wheels with the worn out stock tires to get into the garage that day. Once I changed out the wheels and tires, I went down the driveway and then proceeded to climb it without spinning a wheel. Further test drives through the ice-rink-like neighborhood streets revealed that I could stop nearly as well on that ice as I could on dry pavement. I was immediately impressed. These were my first winter tires too.

And like St Louis, Wichita has dry roads more often than not in the winter so my tires saw plenty of dry roads. We even drove to Des Moines, IA on them with dry interstate the entire trip. No issues.

Here in Colorado, where we get that world famous dry fluffy powdery snow, the tires continue to amaze me.

I have a set of winter tires for my Mazda too.

I'm completely sold on the idea of winter tires.

[froggy81500]

Another thing to keep in mind is that usually winter tires don't have a specific speed rating. Its moot point if you are not pushing your vehicle to its limits.

[Ritz]

Another thing to keep in mind is that usually winter tires don't have a specific speed rating. Its moot point if you are not pushing your vehicle to its limits.

Really cheap snow tires are like that. The good quality snow tires will be suitably speed rated.

Cheers,

[froggy81500]

Really cheap snow tires are like that. The good quality snow tires will be suitably speed rated.

Cheers,


I've looked at a lot of tires on tirerack, including snows, and more often than not the snows don't have a specific speed rating listed.

[Tom92SCm]

Well since this is a VUE forum, I think any winter tire is capable of VUE speeds.

My Michelin X-Ice tires are Q speed rated- or rated for 99 mph. Which is about 20 more mph than I need with a VUE.

[Partymmudasti]

I read through this whole thread (man, was that 15 minutes of my life Ill never get back, lol)...

We have an 03 Vue V6 AWD. I live in Metro Detroit and have acreage and a cabin up north near Grayling, MI. In the winter, snow can reach 3'. Ive driven our AWD Vue up every winter and was amazed at, when the AWD "did" kick in, it kept me from getting stuck. Now Ive gotten stuck every time I drive my 03 Envoy 4wd up there, locked in 4HI. Never in the Vue. Our AWD kicks in right away, makes some noise when active, but nonetheless worked great.

Needless to say, its leaked RDM fluid since new. The dealer failed to find the leak and now at 57,000 miles the RDM had to be replaced under extended warranty. I didnt know anything was even wrong with the RDM but the tech said when they brought it for a test drive after replacing the water pump and timing belt, they heard grumbling from the RDM.

If there is one thing I learned from this thread, I will be changing the RDM at 10,000 mile intervals now. Our $50 deductible bumper to bumper extended warranty will be up in about 20,000 miles and I really dont want the expense of replacing the RDM out of warranty. Thanks to the poster(s) of this thread for that tidbit of info!!

[newbievueowner]

While I am hopefull that the AWD system in my 05 Vue works well, I really have my doubts. I will find out very shortly thought as the temps are getting cold up here in Canada and the is some snow forecast for up North already.

I really find it hard to believe that the 4WD TB does not work as well as the part time AWD in the Vue. Maybe it comes down to the tires on your TB or something but all things being equal, the TB with 4WD should be no comparison to the AWD.

What tires do you have on your Vue that gives it such good handling/traction??? I may have to buy a set!

[Partymmudasti]

While I am hopefull that the AWD system in my 05 Vue works well, I really have my doubts. I will find out very shortly thought as the temps are getting cold up here in Canada and the is some snow forecast for up North already.

I really find it hard to believe that the 4WD TB does not work as well as the part time AWD in the Vue. Maybe it comes down to the tires on your TB or something but all things being equal, the TB with 4WD should be no comparison to the AWD.

What tires do you have on your Vue that gives it such good handling/traction??? I may have to buy a set!

Im on my 2nd set of Michelin Cross Terrains. It comes down to the running boards and the weight.

[newbievueowner]

So you have the Michelin cross terrains on your Vue? What do you have on the TB? How long (miles) do the Michelins typically last on the Vue? Michelin are real good tires for the cold and snow, my old man has had real good luck with them on his 4x4's.

[Partymmudasti]

So you have the Michelin cross terrains on your Vue? What do you have on the TB? How long (miles) do the Michelins typically last on the Vue? Michelin are real good tires for the cold and snow, my old man has had real good luck with them on his 4x4's.


No..... I have the Cross Terrains on the Envoy. They came as OEM, and I replaced them at 85,000 miles with new Michelin Cross Terrains. I now have 110,000 miles on the Envoy.

The VUE has the BFGoodrich whatever it is that came from Saturn. My Dad replaced them once already with the same thing :dizzy: I told him to go with a different tire. Nonetheless, even with the BFG's on the VUE, it would blow the doors off my Envoy any day in the snow.

[newbievueowner]

You sure your Envoy isn't 2wd?? LOL! There is defenitely something wrong if the Bridgestoned Dueller tires with the Vue AWD system can outperform a 4WD vehicle with Michelin tires.

[MrHorspwer]

Partymmudasti's comments made me think of a conversation I once had with my future in-laws.

I had just begun dating my current wife and was visiting her parents in Gaylord, MI. Gaylord is right smack in the center of Michigan's snow-belt and, according to the NWS, on average receives 150+ inches of local snowfall a year.

I was talking to them about my new car purchase, an AWD Subaru. I wanted AWD because we would be traveling to the snow-belt quite often and I wanted something a bit more capable in foul weather. I also told them I was considering snow tires.

They look at me like I was growing a second head. "Why would you need AWD or snow tires? We've never had either and we've gotten around just fine in this weather for over 20 years," was their reply. It's the truth. Most the people up there don't buy snow tires and with the exception of 4WD trucks, AWD is just as rare. Everybody still seems to make it into work on time.

Now, my mother-in-law did get an AWD Equinox and loves it. My father-in-law's new company vehicle is a Saturn Aura with stability control, which he also loves.

I find it funny that just like people who travel to cold and snowy locations *need* their $400 Patagonia parkas, while the locals wear Carhartt or whatever Wal Mart had on sale, people who don't live in a particualrly snowy area *need* AWD and snow tires.

[MrHorspwer]

Also, I understand what Partymmudasti is saying about the Envoy.

My dad has a Trailblazer with running boards. They hang down so low that when you're in deep snow, it begins to pack up underneath the running boards and starts to high-center the vehicle, limiting forward progress.

4WD, AWD, or the best snow tires in the world don't help when the tires aren't making good contact with the ground.

[Rivernut]

I refuse to call a rear differential a module. Anyway, the rear diff on my '03 was replaced under warranty, some common problem. I live in Western Massachusetts and we get heavy snow. I also tow a bass boat in the winter and launch on snow/ice covered ramps. The AWD drive is noticable when it kicks in. I have some sort of Goodyear traction tires that allow me to get around well enough. For heavy duty stuff I have a Suburban.

[1saxman]

Also, I understand what Partymmudasti is saying about the Envoy.

My dad has a Trailblazer with running boards. They hang down so low that when you're in deep snow, it begins to pack up underneath the running boards and starts to high-center the vehicle, limiting forward progress.

4WD, AWD, or the best snow tires in the world don't help when the tires aren't making good contact with the ground.

Quite true. I once had a FWD Ford Escort GT that would go great in the snow....until it got high enough for the air dam under the bumper to start digging in. That was it. You need ground clearance in rough conditions.

[newbievueowner]

Well, I *need* AWD! LOL! I live in a snowy climate and have to get into the cottage in the winter (ie: read tight, winding, steep hilled road).

As far as the RB's hanging down and causing it to get stuck I can see that and fully understand. I guess what I'm saying it that with 6 or 8" of snow there would still be enough ground clearance on the RB's and there is no way the 'reactionary' AWD on the Vue can perform better than a 4WD Envoy (especially with the Michelin CT tires - those tires are really good).

[goBoating]

Just me in the vehicle. But what I am saying is that I turned the vehicle around and went up the exact same hilly section in reverse. This is what I don't understand. I will try the hill climb again when it rains and have someone watch to see if either rear tire is spinning (when driving forward). I know the rear wheel was spinning a little going up backwards because I had my head sticking out the window and could see it turning. Maybe you are onto something. Maybe with the extra weight on the front wheels when driving backwards, even the crappy Bridgestone tires managed to get enough grip to climb. Just not in forward drive.

First, I don't think the Saturn AWD system is intended to be the badest off road system available. It is intended to send some torque (some) to the back wheels if and after the front wheels spin. I don't know what the torque split front to back is. Anybody know?

And, regarding the difference between climbing forward and backward. When you are going up a steep incline forward, you are shifting some of the vehicle weight to the rear wheels and unloading the front. Therefore, the front lose some traction and spin. The rears gain some traction. But, it the torque split is not strong enough then you won't get enough torque to the rear to spin them.

In reverse, you are unloading the rear wheels (first up the incline) and shifting more weight onto the front wheels (last up the incline). Thus, unloaded the rears have less traction and if they have adequate torque headed their way they spin. The front wheels have more torque and more traction and would be slower to break loose.

I think.... maybe....

Anyway, I think the Vue's AWD is intended to improve performance in on road but nasty driving conditions. As stated above, if you want an off road vehicle, get something with locking hubs and diffs. I drive a WRX with a 50/50 torque split center diff and limited slip front and rear. On nearly any road surface it handles very nicely (especially with a rear sway bar). But, off road, it is easy to get it to spin one side and not the other. I don't think the Vue AWD does anything close to a 50/50 torque split in the center diff.

[goBoating]

I found interesting Youtubes made by a Subaru guys comparing AWD systems. Sorry the vids are made by Subaru guys and they are not specifically about Saturn Vues, but, maybe it lends a little context. In each vid you can literally 'see' the torque split happening with each vehicle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t09ExAUgtyE&e

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7dVFY5CxT0

[goBoating]

In the second vid, at about 1:37, a CRV does exactly what the AWD Vue does. And, then at 9:15, a Toyota Highlander is described as having a front wheel drive bias and also spins the fronts and sending less torque to the rear... I think likely very similar to the Vue AWD system.

[Ritz]

In the second vid, at about 1:37, a CRV does exactly what the AWD Vue does. And, then at 9:15, a Toyota Highlander is described as having a front wheel drive bias and also spins the fronts and sending less torque to the rear... I think likely very similar to the Vue AWD system.

The only mainstream AWD systems that I'm aware of that can effectively avoid the "spinning one side" phenomenon are the older torsen based Audi Quattro system (I'm not sure about the newer haldex system) and the BMW AWD X-drive system. But I agree 100% that if your goal is offroading, a truck with locking diffs is absolutely the way to go.

Cheers,

[1saxman]

Ritz; I believe 'full Versatrak' as in the Buick Rendevous can drive any/all four wheels. It does this with a second gerotor pump in the RDM plus 'Traction Control' at least on the front (I think - the front end may have a limited-slip differential).

[newbievueowner]

With the lame RDM in the Vue I would be surprised if it could even drive 1 wheel! lol!

Would be nice to see a Vue on that ramp and what it actually does!

[suprchrgr]

Replace RDM, swaybar links, front wheel bearings, center bearing, piss in the gas tank and then it should work!

[Ritz]

Ritz; I believe 'full Versatrak' as in the Buick Rendevous can drive any/all four wheels. It does this with a second gerotor pump in the RDM plus 'Traction Control' at least on the front (I think - the front end may have a limited-slip differential).

Call me skeptical. :)

Cheers,

[newbievueowner]

Well, as I suspected when I first started this thread - the AWD system in my 05 Vue really does blow!! I finally got a chance to try it out this morning as we got some snow and pretty cold temps overnight and even had the ice on the pavement from the cars packing the snow down.

I found myself doing a 4 wheel slide when turning from a dead stop. I could hear the RDM hamster groaning in and out (must have been getting tired). This AWD really IS lame. It does help a little from a dead stop going in a straight line, but just marginally better than a FWD IMO.

I don't really know what to do at this point.... Either look at trading it in next spring, look at getting an 03 RDM and swap it in, or try and retrofit an 08 Vue rear end in??
For those that still have their ORIGINAL (non neutered) RDM units, how well do they actually work?? Do they engage and do a better job?

Not impressed with this absolutely lame AWD system that GM put in this vehicle. Not really a surprise why they are on the verge of bankrupcy I guess!!

[newbievueowner]

More snow coming tonight, guess I get to try it again tomorrow.

Can anyone help out on the earlier RDM question in my previous post?? Tx

[Ritz]

Well, as I suspected when I first started this thread - the AWD system in my 05 Vue really does blow!! I finally got a chance to try it out this morning as we got some snow and pretty cold temps overnight and even had the ice on the pavement from the cars packing the snow down.

I found myself doing a 4 wheel slide when turning from a dead stop. I could hear the RDM hamster groaning in and out (must have been getting tired). This AWD really IS lame. It does help a little from a dead stop going in a straight line, but just marginally better than a FWD IMO.

I don't really know what to do at this point.... Either look at trading it in next spring, look at getting an 03 RDM and swap it in, or try and retrofit an 08 Vue rear end in??
For those that still have their ORIGINAL (non neutered) RDM units, how well do they actually work?? Do they engage and do a better job?

Not impressed with this absolutely lame AWD system that GM put in this vehicle. Not really a surprise why they are on the verge of bankrupcy I guess!!

That jibes with my experience in CT snow last year with dedicated snows. Putting an old RDM is only going to help in that the system will engage sooner. It's not going to help the poor performance AFTER it's engaged.

As for what to do...I wouldn't throw good money after bad and try to "fix" the system. I doubt the '08+ rear will work for numerous reasons and retrofitting an older RDM is only going to address the speed at which the system engages. Trading it in is also going to suck since these things just don't hold their value at all. I can't imagine it getting any better with all the uncertainty about GM's ability to remain in business floating around. I basically told my wife to leave it in the garage when it snows and I'm going to get us a 2nd hand Audi or Subaru for winter. My wife likes the VUE a lot, but I just find it to be downright dangerous in the snow, even with snow tires. Some other folks 'round here will tell ya that it's just fine and that we should slow down, learn how to drive, etc....effectively shifting the blame to the driver rather than the ineffective AWD system. I definitely feel ripped off by Saturn over what I feel was blatant misrepresentation of the effectiveness of their AWD system. So I feel your pain and have said before that should GM manage to remain in business they won't be selling any more vehicles to me. And that's coming from someone who bought 3 Saturns previously.

Cheers,

[newbievueowner]

Well, something needs to be done IMHO if I'm going to keep this thing. :mad:

What I want to know is how do the Torrent/Equinox systems work?? They are the same RDM's. Do they engage quicker or do they spin like crazy before engaging as well??

If the old RDM drum works (ie: kicks in faster) but just takes more frequent oil changes I'm willing to entertain the idea. I would change the RP out once a year at $16, no problem. But I want to know if they really work that much better. I know I have heard some say that the original drum works MUCH better but....??

All I need it to do is engage faster (sooner) when the AWD is required to get me going without sliding around as much. I mean you have to give it quite a bit of throttle to make the system work. There should be a disclaimer in the owners manual "CAUTION: do not step on the gas while turning from a dead stop or it could cause loss of control of the vehicle"!! That about sums it up (that was my experience). Good thing I have quick reflexes and know how to drive or it would have spun out.

I know it won't work as well as a selectable 4WD system but it needs to work better than it does now.

[mars_volta]

most awd systems are a joke and the video proves it.

subaru > all.





i also own a 2000 astro AWD its thats the real deal. same driveline as a typhoon or cyclone. ;)

[newbievueowner]

most awd systems are a joke and the video proves it.

subaru > all.





i also own a 2000 astro AWD its thats the real deal. same driveline as a typhoon or cyclone. ;)

How is the AWD in the Astro configured (ie: how does it engage)??

[revue]

More snow coming tonight, guess I get to try it again tomorrow.

Can anyone help out on the earlier RDM question in my previous post?? Tx

I have the good original RDM in my 04 and change the fluid as needed.
I think it works great and love driving in the snow. When the traffic
signal turns green I just put my foot down and leave everyone else
just sitting there.

I have the Honda 3.5 engine. The ring and pinion in the rear diff is different
with the Honda drive train. The rear driveshaft actually spins 33% faster so
the RDM lockup occurs quicker than a Vue with the Saturn drive train.
I think that's why there were more complaints of RDM noise and problems
with the 3.5L.

[newbievueowner]

I have the good original RDM in my 04 and change the fluid as needed.
I think it works great and love driving in the snow. When the traffic
signal turns green I just put my foot down and leave everyone else
just sitting there.

I have the Honda 3.5 engine. The ring and pinion in the rear diff is different
with the Honda drive train. The rear driveshaft actually spins 33% faster so
the RDM lockup occurs quicker than a Vue with the Saturn drive train.
I think that's why there were more complaints of RDM noise and problems
with the 3.5L.

Yea, I realize that the rear gear is different on our Vue's with the 3.5 V-6. As far as I understand, the only thing that was changed on the 'neutered' RDM was the drum?? Is this correct?? Does anyone know 100% for sure?? If so, then I will just buy a used one from any 03 Vue, swap it in and give it a try!! Or was there other crap inside the RDM that was changed as well from 2004 to 2005?

[newbievueowner]

Oh, one more thing, can you do me a huge favour since you have an original and unmolested RDM. What is the part number engraved on the bottom of the RDM case?? Mine is 4G1W-4000-AB. I'm assuming that yours will probably end in -AA but I want to get the full part number to see what's up. Would appreciate if anyone with an original and unmolested RDM could provide this number/verification. Thanks

[D C]

I found myself doing a 4 wheel slide when turning from a dead stop. I could hear the RDM hamster groaning in and out (must have been getting tired). This AWD really IS lame. It does help a little from a dead stop going in a straight line, but just marginally better than a FWD IMO.

What did you expect to happen when turning from a dead stop on a slick surface? Seems like the rear kicked in if all 4 wheels were sliding.

[far2grumpy]

I bought a 2005 Vue V-6 AWD this past summer. I've read so many negatives about this particular AWD system I was expecting the worse.

We had snow last night here in my part of Iowa and I was out bright and early to determine if buying the AWD Vue was a mistake.

I tried several straight-line take-offs, as well as tight turns to the left and right from dead stop and was pleasantly surprised at the performance. There was minimal front wheel-spin before the rear tires started digging and the Vue consistently launched like a little rocket-ship.

I've lived in either Nebraska or Iowa since 1982 ... am familiar with snow and ice covered roads ... and have owned several 4X4 and AWD vehicles. In fact, in addition to the Vue, I now have a 2003 Ranger 4X4 and a 2002 Suby AWD Forester (our fourth Subaru going back to 1989).

I bought the Saturn to replace the Suby as I'm tired of throwing parts at the little beast. But was having second thoughts about replacing the Subaru because I wasn't sure how my wife would take to the new daily driver.

I asked her to drive the Vue through the neighborhood and then to the parking lot of the company I recently retired from. She tried several take-offs, tight turns and panic stops on the parking lot and felt very confident the Vue would meet her needs.

I don't want to leave the impression I consider the Vue to be 100% equivalent with the performance of the 4X4 Ford or AWD Subaru on snow or ice. However, I do feel ... based on our driving style ... the Vue can be trusted to get from point A to B when mother nature opens her bag of tricks.

[bob3434dog]

iT's lame alright,2003 v-6 vue AWD 19,000 need new RDM and Carrier bearing than they wonder what caused the bail out for the big three I hope it does not go through they assemble junk parts in vehicles.

[newbievueowner]

What did you expect to happen when turning from a dead stop on a slick surface? Seems like the rear kicked in if all 4 wheels were sliding.

Ummmm.... I expected it to work better??

It did the 4 wheel slide, then when I let off on the gas it started to act like a RWD and the rear end started fishtailing..

[newbievueowner]

I bought a 2005 Vue V-6 AWD this past summer. I've read so many negatives about this particular AWD system I was expecting the worse.

We had snow last night here in my part of Iowa and I was out bright and early to determine if buying the AWD Vue was a mistake.

I tried several straight-line take-offs, as well as tight turns to the left and right from dead stop and was pleasantly surprised at the performance. There was minimal front wheel-spin before the rear tires started digging and the Vue consistently launched like a little rocket-ship.

I've lived in either Nebraska or Iowa since 1982 ... am familiar with snow and ice covered roads ... and have owned several 4X4 and AWD vehicles. In fact, in addition to the Vue, I now have a 2003 Ranger 4X4 and a 2002 Suby AWD Forester (our fourth Subaru going back to 1989).

I bought the Saturn to replace the Suby as I'm tired of throwing parts at the little beast. But was having second thoughts about replacing the Subaru because I wasn't sure how my wife would take to the new daily driver.

I asked her to drive the Vue through the neighborhood and then to the parking lot of the company I recently retired from. She tried several take-offs, tight turns and panic stops on the parking lot and felt very confident the Vue would meet her needs.

I don't want to leave the impression I consider the Vue to be 100% equivalent with the performance of the 4X4 Ford or AWD Subaru on snow or ice. However, I do feel ... based on our driving style ... the Vue can be trusted to get from point A to B when mother nature opens her bag of tricks.

Wait until you try it out in wet/heavy snow around the freezing mark.

In cold, dry snow conditions it drives not too bad.

When you get snow at 32*F, go to the parking lot again and try taking off from a dead stop with the wheels turned and see what happens. :eek:

[far2grumpy]

I'm sure there'll be many opportunities to drive in snow and I hope the Iowa temperature stays at 32F or better ... I will try the maneuver you suggest but need to say its not something I'd do outside an empty parking lot.

Counting the Vue, I've owned nine 4X4 or AWD vehicles (two Jeeps, two Ford pickups, four Subaru's) through the years and probably got in some sort of trouble with all of them except the Vue.

The Vue is the exception only because the winter driving season is young.

I think most anyone can get in trouble with any vehicle by unwise use of throttle and / or brakes on streets or highways ... or by looking at a trail or snowbank and "thinking lets see how far we can get."

At my age I expect AWD to assist me with pulling smoothly away from traffic signals - on slick surfaces - when its my turn to move - in a relatively straight line.

My major problem with AWD ... which I suspect others share ... is we tend to build too much speed and are most dangerous trying to either slow, stop or hit something cheap.

[MASTERTECH .CA]

we have a '03 saturn vue AWD 2.2l. this thing works fine and as intended in winter weather.the wife loves it,and fuel economy is better than expected.
it is certainly not like my s-10 truck in the snow,but was never meant to be.i'm fully aware of all the issues with this engine/trans combo,but i keep all the fluids changed regularly,including the rear diff,and all is ok at 155,000 km..
we are running cooper weathermaster snows on it,and she goes up hills others can't go down.a might noisy on a dry road,but worth the trade off.
it has had the usual BCM,o2 sensor,and one rear whell bearing,other than that it works just fine in all weather.we don't abuse it,and it doesn't abuse us.my neighbours CRV has had far more problems,although not typical.
we are so far satisfied.

[chillin05VUE]

Will see how my '05 will do soon. We're suppose to get snow and ice this weekend and it will be my first time to actually use the awd system. Mainly just used it in gravel. I'll let you know monday.

[newbievueowner]

We've already had a bunch of snows falls and the AWD system in the Vue is Marginal at best IMO. If they would have kept the engagment lower (ie: so the wheels didn't spin so much) like the original unit it would have likely worked much better. In my 05 it just makes all sorts of noises and doesn't really do a whole lot.

[far2grumpy]

newbivueowner ... you might have a mechanical problem.

I'm not sure what you mean by "wheels spin too much" but did a little test on my ice covered driveway with my 05 Vue AWD.

I should say the Vue consistently makes the slope with no wheel-spin but I had my wife intentional spin the front tires for the video.

Perhaps you can note the rear tires (all tires are original Duelers with 37K miles) started rotating at almost same instant the front tires lost traction.

I think this is an excellent response from an economy AWD system.

Incidentally, the video is one continuous shot but I inadvertently dipped the camera toward the ground for a second or two.

http://www.youtube.com:80/watch?v=Hk0HvJbl7wo

[chillin05VUE]

Noticed that the rears caught on pretty fast. Looks like they actually spun faster then the fronts. But, is that a Forester in the background? Would like to both the VUE and Subie go head to head. Would you indulge us with that?

[far2grumpy]

We're looking for more ice and / or snow early next week and I'm trying to talk the missus and daughter into lining them up ... for a few feet at least.

The link at the bottom is for the Forester today ... it was about 7 deg F and my old Sony cam did its best but missed a lot. I believe you can see the right rear surge as the car accelerates ... its probably a bit more reactive than the Vue.

I actually prefer to drive the Vue on snow and ice as it has more ground clearance and the performance - for the driving I do at least - is pretty much even.

http://www.youtube.com:80/watch?v=N5SK4Z_vLVE

[chillin05VUE]

Thanks Grumpy for the videos. Here in the Puget Sound area of Washington, we got some fresh snow over the weekend. On my way home, I had to drive up my snow and ice covered hill that is my driveway. Normally, in my '96 Cutlass and '99 Altima, I would have only made it half way up until I loose traction and slid back down. But not in the VUE. The front wheels slipped briefly and then the rears kicked in. Needless to say, I was able to make it up the hill of doom without a problem. We're getting more snow tonight and tomorrow, so we'll see how it does then. BTW, I still have my Deulers of Death!

[newbievueowner]

Where's all the snow??? lol! We have another 6" of snow today. I'm sticking to my 'marginal' AWD rating for the Vue. Yes it does help out a little better than just a FWD vehicle but it could have been a lot better IMO. With a lower engagement before the front wheels are spinning it would work much, much better.

I still have the bridgestoned's on and this is what I notice about them:

In cold temps and fresh snow they actually work pretty good. On ice or slippery/slushy snow just below the freezing mark there is very little grip and can be quite dangerous if you are not paying attention. You have to adjust your driving style to suit both types of scenarios.

When the AWD engages I hear a groaning noise coming from the rear so I know it is kicking in, it just doesn't work all that well. LOL!

[Ritz]

For the record, it is substandard. However, I was able to pull out a young lass who'd gotten her Wrangler stuck in a ditch today in about 7-8" of snow. If you can get the RDM to engage and STAY engaged and you've got good snow tires things can be OK. The wrangler was pretty helpless in the snow, even with 4x4 as she had a fairly worn set of all season tires on it. So chalk one up for the half a versatrak system on this occasion.

Cheers,

[newbievueowner]

Now your RDM will probably blow up on you.... down the road. :eek:

[Ritz]

Now your RDM will probably blow up on you.... down the road. :eek:

Based on the excrement that drained out at 32k miles, I have no doubt about this.

[far2grumpy]

This post is provided primarily for new or potential Vue AWD owners. I’m not employed by Saturn-GM but now find - as an U.S. taxpayer - I have a vested interest in the company’s success.

I offer a second opinion to those disparaging the Vue AWD system. I have a 2005 Vue AWD with V-6 and enthusiastically endorse the AWD’s utility.

Vue AWD is the on-demand type, with no levers or switches to manipulate, which basically means the rear wheels are simply along for the ride until the front wheels lose traction and begin to spin. The rear wheels will immediately engage to provide additional pulling power until the speed of front and rear wheels equalizes.

I’ve posted video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hk0HvJbl7wo of my Vue on an icy incline. You can use any mpeg viewer to note the rear wheels instantly receive power when the front wheels break traction. The AWD performance has been consistent in snow, ice and mud. I’ve not noticed any noise when the rear drive mechanism engages.

The Vue is the ninth AWD or 4X4 I’ve owned …and is just as fun and comfortable to drive as any of the Jeeps (2) or Subaru’s (4) or Ford pickups (2).

I have 37,000 miles on this Vue and the AWD might hiccup tomorrow but has provided impressive performance to this point.

It goes without saying … poor driving techniques; neglected system maintenance or inferior tires can negate the efficiency of any AWD system.

[newbievueowner]

I’ve not noticed any noise when the rear drive mechanism engages.


Huh? You get zero noise when it engages?? Does anyone else hear the noise when their AWD enagages or is it just me?? I don't think I have a problem with mine but....... ????? It does finally engage, it just takes a little bit.

Like I said, it would have been a decent system if they kept the original low RDM engagement speed differential. I am O.K with an on demand system, just not so much of a delay. Sure it works, but if you are on a steeper or off camber incline and give it the gas to go, the front end is sliding sideways before the rear wheels kick in.

[Vue6]

...Mine used to make a noise when it engaged , but I recently just had my RDM changed under warranty with part # 19180875 , now it reacts quicker and no noise , I LOVE MY AWD on my RL , I would also recommend AWD ,I'm running 215 70 16's firestones for snows on steelies,:) DC

[far2grumpy]

newbievueowner ... honestly, I don't hear any noise from the RDM ... the very instant the fronts break traction the rears will spin. Its remarkable how fast the RDM reacts.

BTW ... I just noticed you now have a stake in GM ... Canada apparently also threw $4 billion Canadian in the Big 3 bailout kitty.

We are so screwed.

[chillin05VUE]

I also have to say that I love the awd system. The system engages quickly enough that the brief front wheel spin isn't noticable. I have noticed the noise coming from the rear but that's only when I have it floored and all 4 wheels spin. But driving normally and the rears kick in, I don't hear any noise. Again, I just wish that GM had put a switch in to lock it AWD but since they didn't, I'm not going to cry over it. A 2nd gear start switch would have also been good. All in all, I've been having fun with the VUE with all the snow that we've been getting the past week.

[Pool VUE]

[QUOTE=newbievueowner;1369210]Huh? You get zero noise when it engages?? Does anyone else hear the noise when their AWD enagages or is it just me?? I don't think I have a problem with mine but....... ????? QUOTE]

Since you asked, mine does not make a noise when it engages. You didn't ask, but mine engages in about 1/2 to 1 second and it doesn't engage with a bang. I suspect what you are saying about your VUE is true, as there are too many on this forum with similar experiences as yours. But keep in mind that there is some percentage of VUE owners who are not having the same performance issues as you. Perhaps these differences are the result of large or sloppy manufacturing tolerances?

[far2grumpy]

Pool Vue ... I think you are correct regarding tolerances of mass produced parts. This could have much to do with uneven performance.

I also suspect RDM service has a lot to do with performance. Many have noted that changing fluid results in quieter operation and will most likely improved operation.

I think the main reason my RDM engages quickly and silently is I drive like an old man (I'm almost 67). I generally always pull away from a dead stop by driving like I'm on ice - I apply just enough throttle to get rolling and then speed up thereafter. (I have intentional spun the tires just ensure AWD engages).

Another thought is knowledge the life of AWD components (anyone's design) can be shortened by making "hard" starts on dry pavement. By design, the rear tires will spin anytime the front tires lose traction. IMO ... if you apply enough throttle to spin the front tires on dry - or even damp surfaces - you shorten the RDM's life.

I also suspect "hard" starts are one reason we find metallic particles when the old RDM fluid is closely examined.

[newbievueowner]

Mine does not engage with a bang. It kicks in after about the 1/2 a second to 1 second mark with a groaning noise. I would really be interested in driving one of these Vue's that supposedly has a a 'good' RDM unit in it to compare. What goes bad on these things again?? The clutch drum assembly?

[newbievueowner]

...Mine used to make a noise when it engaged , but I recently just had my RDM changed under warranty with part # 19180875 , now it reacts quicker and no noise , I LOVE MY AWD on my RL , I would also recommend AWD ,I'm running 215 70 16's firestones for snows on steelies,:) DC

That part number is not valid.

[mhartzel]

my RDM failed under 19k miles. I don't drive that hard and it just started groaning esp in reverse and at low speeds or coasting.

[WE0H]

Bringing back an old thread but useful info...:dizzy:

I pull a double sit down jet ski trailer with my '04 Vue AWD. The launches around here are like play box sand and the parking area is a steep rutted uphill gravel covered mess. My Vue digs in all 4 tires at the launch and pulls the ski's out no problem. When I park on that gravel hill, she again digs in all 4 tires and climbs until I decide to stop. The hill is so steep, it is hard to walk up to the Vue when I have to get in it. There is zero traction issue with my Vue. Also zero noise from the rear diff. It just works as I would expect it to. The diff fluid is likely stock 88k mile lube. I haven't changed it yet. Do I have an old or new RDM? I have no clue. My S/N is S896854. It works :yes:

Mike

[newbievueowner]

If your AWD works that well my guess is that you have the old RDM (that actually engages & works as it should).

[WE0H]

Well that's cool to know :p
I wonder if the previous owner never really used the AWD as my RDM is stone quiet and the way it functions at the lake? That gravel hill is wicked slippery to walk on. You'd swear it was covered in freakin round marbel like stones :dizzy:

Anyhow the Vue is getting the Royal Purple lube's in the RDM & transfer case this week. The tranny has fresh fluid in it from the Satty dealer where I bought it last month. Should be good to go :yes:

Did you ever get your RDM figured out or something else? I recall reading you had issues with the rear end not locking in.

Mike

[goBoating]

The noise you hear when the rears kick in may not be the AWD system. Note that when the fronts slips, you may well be triggering the traction control at the same time as the AWD. The traction control (uses the brakes) may well make a little racket.

'Just a thought.

[WE0H]

How does your Vue climb on slippery surfaces or soft sand?

Mike

[XRL]

I didn't think that the AWDs had traction control. And why would the traction control use brakes on the rears when TC is found on FWD cars?

[far2grumpy]

I didn't think that the AWDs had traction control. And why would the traction control use brakes on the rears when TC is found on FWD cars?

There's no TC on my 05 AWD Vue ... I don't think the two systems would be compatible on any platform.

[chillin05VUE]

Trac Control was only used on the FWD VUEs. It would be completely useless on the AWD models since the front wheels need to spin for the rears to do their job.

[newbievueowner]

Well that's cool to know :p
I wonder if the previous owner never really used the AWD as my RDM is stone quiet and the way it functions at the lake? That gravel hill is wicked slippery to walk on. You'd swear it was covered in freakin round marbel like stones :dizzy:

Anyhow the Vue is getting the Royal Purple lube's in the RDM & transfer case this week. The tranny has fresh fluid in it from the Satty dealer where I bought it last month. Should be good to go :yes:

Did you ever get your RDM figured out or something else? I recall reading you had issues with the rear end not locking in.

Mike
I have not changed out my RDM yet. I will be doing that shortly as I believe I now have all the 'equipment' I need to do the job. I will post the results when I'm done (it had better be better! lol!).

[newbievueowner]

Well, I finally got around to changing out my RDM unit today. Sorry, no pictures guys as it's a pretty messy job and working under the car on ramps is not fun. It's pretty simple & straight forward, just follow the instructions in the service manual.

This unit also makes a bit of a noise on engagement but it seems to be less than the one I took out. My main concern is that it engages quicker and grabs a little better than the old one. Won't be able to try that out until it rains and the real test will be the snow in the winter.

I don't know what to say at this point. I think the Versatrak 'light' that's in the Vue is pretty inferrior and GM screwed all their customers over by installing this system IMO. For those that don't hear the AWD engagement maybe you either have your radio too loud or are going deaf. lol! Because there is defenitely some audible noise there. Even my buddies 06 that I tried in the winter made this noise but his had better engagement/traction.

On a side note, when working on the RDM under the car I found out that my center carier bearing is pretty much completely shot. FANTASTIC! More $$$$ down the toilet on a 4 year old vehicle. The bearing kits are on national backorder. Good 'ol GM. It's no wonder they went bankrupt the first time. The guy who designed this should be taken out behind the barn and shot because seriously the design is absolute crap! No wonder why so many of them fail!! GM is making a killing on these. Up here in Canada they retail for $380 +tx. I'm going to be ordering one online from a US source. $152 + shipping. BIG difference in price. We get soooooooooo raped up here with replacement part costs! :upset: :x

[WE0H]

Why do those center bearings fail? Are they sealed on both sides or open? Can they be repacked before they fail? Is it a needle bearing or ball bearing? When they fail do they fall apart or just have excessive clearances between the balls (or rollers) and the races?

tnx,
Mike

[newbievueowner]

I think most of the time the rubber just separates from the bracket (at least mine did). The design is absolute crap. If you have an AWD, crawl under the car and you will see what I mean.

[WE0H]

I wonder if a guy could make a insert to hold the bearing in the bracket other then relying on the rubber to hold it? Something machined out of a urethane block or possibly filling the area with 3M Windo-Weld which is what guys do to factory motor mounts when urethane mount inserts are not available. Maybe just make a billet mount out of aluminum and mount it on rubber isolator mounts like a electric motor would be mounted on in some industrial application. As long as the bearing itself is not failing, there is a homebrew solution other than paying the big bucks for a new factory bearing assembly.

Mike

[newbievueowner]

That's basically what I did. I had some 3/16" thick rubber sheet laying around so I decided to just cut it into a 1" wide strip. I wrapped it 3 times around inside the bearing holder and used 4 zip ties to hold it in place. This is a temp fix until I can get a new part (either the same one or jerry rig a better one in its place). It works and holds the bearing centered but it is much noisier when shifting at certain points (pretty quiet once up to drive speeds of 80Km/h or higher).

Trust me, I've been thinking about making & selling a replacement part because these holders are ridiculously over priced and are crap. There is huge demand out there for them that's for sure, just call any of the dealers (online or otherwise) and they just laugh when you tell them you need the center hanger bearing ass'y.

If it stops raining I will take a pic and post my temp fix.

[newbievueowner]

Well it just stopped raining for a minute. Here's my temp hanger bearing fix.

[WE0H]

The MacGyver repair ;) That is what I would have done for a quick fix too.
I would say if you possess the knowledge and have the resources to build a aftermarket carrier bearing assembly, do it. I would think it would be easy enough to carve an aluminum housing on the mill then fabricate a tool to hold a bearing centered where it needs to be, and finally, pour in a specified durometer urethane to mold the bearing into the housing. Using a very high quality double seal bearing of course.

Sounding like a good summer project :dizzy:

Mike

[WE0H]

Well it just stopped raining for a minute. Here's my temp hanger bearing fix.

Wow looks good. Sure be tempting to inject the Windo-Weld into there :arr:

Mike

[newbievueowner]

Never heard of windo-weld?

If it's too rigid then it will transfer vibes from the drivetrain. Mine's pretty much solid for the most part & that's why it transfers more vibes (especially with part throttle acceleration).

[WE0H]

As long as it isn't more vibration than a IRL with urethane mounts, it'll be decent. For others the vibe's might be fun :eek:

Mike