Your 2003 Vue w/ VTI can get you killed

[dcooney]

WARNING
2003 Vue 2.2L Automatic AWD w/ VTI Transmission

THE CAR: 2003 Vue 2.2L Automatic AWD, VTI, ABS, 68,XXX miles

Technicians and fellow Vue owners... I ask for your assistance and give serious warning about the Vues with the VTI transmissions. I know many here are aware of this problem but I hope to call attention to this issue for those who have just found this forum as I did a few days ago before you experience serious and possible fatal consequences.

My wife, with our two year old in the car, was driving her 2003 VUE, 2.2L on Friday. Without warning, the VUE suddenly came to a dead crawl while crossing a four lane state highway and was almost t-boned in the drivers door. If the oncoming driver was not attentive and did not take a drastic evasive maneuver, I likely would have lost my wife and the dear mother of our 2 year old son. She was very upset and I knew when she called it was a serious and traumatic situation.

After stopping traffic and causing a pile up during rush hour, she was able to get the car to the side of the road. After gathering our thoughts on the phone she explained the car practically died but the engine began revving real high all he while she wasn't moving. Imagine all this while watching the oncoming car swerve inches away from the front end of the car and into the grass median at 60 mph. She said the engine light and reduced power light were on. I was still working so she got the VUE to crawl home another mile.

When I got home, I started the car and there were no warning lights. I test drove it around the block with no problem so I drove it to O'Reilly Auto Parts and used their code scanner. The code scanner (AutoXray Code Scout 2500) displayed the following messages;

Engine Light Off
P1882 = RATIO CONTROL PERFORMANCE
P0701 = TRANSMISSION CONTROL SYSTEM RANGE/PERFORMANCE
P0700 = TRANSMISSION CONTROL SYSTEM MALFUNCTION

Later, less than 1/2 mile to my home, it happened again... suddenly and without warning I had no power. The engine was still running and the engine light and reduced power light came on. I had no power and I was right in the middle of traffic. I can imagine how helpless my wife felt with a car closing in on driver door at 60 mph. Eventually, I got the car home and parked it.

I plan to call Saturn Customer Service tomorrow and have it towed to the St Louis dealer where I purchased it.

My question's for the forum technicians are...

* Should I even offer up the codes that I got off the code scanner? How can I use this information to my advantage and will they take it seriously? I'm afraid they will just reset something and send me on my way.

* I understand the warranty was extended on on the VTI transmission (I wouldn't have known without reading this forum... thank you). If possible, can you tell me what I can expect based on the codes above. Are the codes descriptive enough based on your experience? Should I expect a new transmission?

* I am willing to trade this in right away but I cannot imagine they will offer me a fair trade in value with the transmission not working. What are our thoughts on this?

* Has anyone else had any trade in experience they can share with any of the VTI equipped VUE's?

Thank You,

dcooney
St Louis

[Uzzy]

OK first, relax. I know that's hard considering what happened, but you need to.

We all know these transmissions are garbage. Technically any car can get you killed, anything can happen. I would take it to the Saturn dealer and basically hand over the keys. Get rid of it. Tell them (calmly) what happened. Tell them about the codes and let them know you want the transmission replaced under warranty. If the vehicle is not acting up, request that they drive it until it does, even if one of the techs needs to take it home for a few days. Don't ever leave with that VUE again. Once it is all fixed up and ready to go, trade it in. Even before it's fixed, I'm sure they can begin the negotiations for trade in and get you into something else. Somebody on here recently posted that they got something like $8,000 or $10,000 trade-in on their VTi VUE. You might want to do a search for that thread and see what happened there. That's way more than it's worth IMO, and I don't expect that kind of deal to happen often.

[john95SW2]

+1^^^ Good advice!

[KennedySaturn]

I know vti's are scarey hence why they are not made anymore. My Saturn store had an off lease 2004 vti come in. We could of bought it cheap and it had 21k on it. We wont even buy it because were so afraid of them. I had one customer that put 50k on his and had 3 vti's replaced. Sorry for your issues and im glad your family is ok. Saturn should take care of it but it will happen again!
Greg

Saturn Of Norwood Mass

[EditEd4TV]

I'm sorry, but I'm trying to understand the scenario here. How did the vehicle attempt to cross a 4 lane highway and almost get t-boned in the driver side door? Would have been the passenger side, yeah? Maybe I'm misunderstanding the way this unfolded. Also, how did the vehicle suddenly come to a dead crawl? I would imagine if the vehicle suddenly lost power, it would slowly come to a crawl, which could possibly give one enough time to steer clear of harm? A few years ago my accelerator stuck while going uphill on a very busy and dangerous and curvy road - nonetheless I was able to pull over to the side of the road and turn off the ignition safely. But, I must admit, in times like that, your mind can go blank and not think clearly and quickly to do the right thing... I knew I couldn't turn off the ignition while in drive, did I have to go to park, how could I stop the car to park, maybe neutral... etc... all that going through my mind all at once within a few seconds, all the while looking at the curve in the road ahead, the cars behind me, the road conditions, the oncoming traffic, etc. Not fun.

In any case, glad to hear the family is ok.

[mikec]

As a VTi survivor, I will tell you that the Saturn dealer will give you more in trade for your Vue than anyone else. So I would advise trading it in ASAP for another Saturn. I traded my 04 VTi Vue in on an 06 FWD V6 almost a year ago and I have been very happy and have had no problems so far. You lose a few miles gas mileage wise but you gain power, smoothness, quietness and peace of mind. Go for it.

[dcooney]

EditEd,

Maybe this will help. She was making a left to go east on Hwy 30.

MAP/Satellite (http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=38.516451,-90.429915&spn=0.000988,0.001824&t=h&z=19&om=1)


UPDATE:

The VUE will be towed to the dealer tomorrow. I talked to the Customer Care Center and the Local Service Department. Both were careful and tactful in their responses. It's funny that they won't even acknowledge the VTI problems unless you press them about the letter they sent out regarding the extension of VTI warranty. Typical corporate snakes.

I gave them the codes over the phone but said they said the Service Department would have to determine what the problem is before they could agree if it is covered under the extended warranty.

I also received a return call and email from the Lakin Law Firm who is handling the Class Action Suit on the VTI Transmissions. I will call them back when I hear what the Dealer has to say after looking at the VUE.



.

[mellissam]

......determine what the problem is before they could agree if it is covered under the extended warranty......
.

Sounds like a VTI failure to me, and I never owned one....Haha
Just heard too many stories on this board describing what you experienced. If it is under 75k, you should be covered. I agree with Uzzy, sell/trade it before they even finish fixing it!

You wife is lucky, and you are lucky your VTI went before 75k, otherwise you'd be owning a piece of scrap...at least you might get a decent trade on it. :)
Good luck.

[spencerb]

The VTi warranty is 5years/75K miles. You are under the miles, but there is a chance the 5 years has expired (some 2003 models were sold in 2002).

Trading the VUE is a smart move. Hopefully the warranty will cover the transmission so your trade-in value will be higher.

[dcooney]

UPDATE:

Well... the local shop is giving me the run around.

I was there yesterday when the car came off the tow truck with a bad transmission that was slipping extremely bad... very high RPM's just to get it to take a slow crawl into parking spot at the Saturn dealer.

They looked at it today and I can't believe they had the b@lls to call me and tell me to pick it up. They're telling me the car is fine and ready for pickup. They said they cannot pull any codes because they were cleared by the O'Reilly code scanner. Instead of investigating the problem, they put an additive in the transmission (per some tech bulletin) and now the chances of it going into "reduced power mode" are slim with the additive "band aid". Meanwhile the warranty will run out and I'll be stuck with the problem.

I spoke to an attorney involved in the class action suit (http://www.lakinlaw.com/CM/NewsFlash/Saturn-Owners-File-Class-Action-Over-Transmission-Failures.asp). He said the codes are meaningless because there are no sensors that monitor or detect the problem with the defective VTI's.

I told the Service Department that they need to keep driving it but they threatened that I would begin getting charged for the Enterprise rental car if I didn't bring it back and pick up my car... nice way to treat a customer. I insisted that they have a technician drive it home for a few days. They finally agreed but said I still have to bring the rental back. The sales department jumped in and offered a car off the lot that we can drive until Saturday. I can guarantee there will be no problem for the tech driving the car with the additive "fix".

Of course the sales department is talking trade with me but this poses a problem for the poor sap who buys this car and puts his/her family in danger not knowing that the transmission is a time bomb. At this point, Saturn is the last thing I want if this is how customers are treated or how they view these safety concerns. I would rather have the car fixed and go to a Chevy or any Chrysler product with the trade.

In the days when there were real mechanics they would have tore down the transmission to find the problem... apparently today, if there is no code, they won't touch it because they won't get paid by the Saturn Warranty Department.

It is absolutely absurd that they know there is a problem but instead if fixing that death trap, they refuse because according to the Service Manager... "We will lose $4,500.00 on the tear down and replacement". Everyone I dealt with from service to sales knew about the VTI problem except the service writer who processed the car when we arrived.

Customer Care is no help. They are just a bunch of corporate puppets... not even there to mediate and not even knowledgeable about the VTI problems. They are just another step and another hassle to get this thing fixed. They are worthless in this process.

My Father-In-Law retired from the GM assembly plant in Wentzville, MO. I told him the story this evening and all he could do is shake his head and say "People like that are running GM into the ground.... it used to be a good company"

It's too bad the old retirees can't be proud of what GM is doing today.

Saturn. All talk. No Service.


dcooney
St Louis

[dcooney]

The Dealer called today...

Surprise, no problem found. They said we must return the loaner VUE and pick up ours.

The funny thing is this the transmission died several times on both my wife and I. In addition I watched the tow truck driver struggle driving the car off the end of the tow truck bed and into the parking spot at the dealer.

Apparently they added a transmission additive and had a technician drive it home for a couple of days.

If these idiots were trying to duplicate the problem they would have drove it as is... no additive. So now this temporary fix will probably get us through the warranty period (7,000 miles left on the extended power train warranty) and then eventually I may get stuck with replacing the transmission out of warranty.

I spoke to the Customer Care Department about getting a detailed copy of the Technical Service Bulletin # 040730024A (NO MOVEMENT IN DRIVE OR REVERSE WITH OR WITHOUT DIAGNOSTIC TROUBLE CODES DTCS). They said it would be available at the dealer upon request. Today, when I picked up the defective VUE the Service Department refused to provide a copy. I have already contacted the NHTSA via their website about this and hope to hear from them soon.

The Service Writer, Salesman and General Manager all seem sympathetic but they all explained they cannot do anything. It is a sad day when a company like this has to send you away in this death trap when they know there is a problem. I'm not sure how they sleep at night knowing about these problems and apparently unconcerned about safety.

Another employee steps in, maybe the finance/sales manager and said "Why don't you just trade it in and you won't have a problem." What an idiot. Why would I trade for another vehicle when this is the type of service I might get in the future? In addition, I had eight payments left on the VUE and this guy thinks the solution is to trade it away, finance a new vehicle and let them sell this hunk of $**t to someone who is unaware of the problem. How about fixing the problem with the transmission?

After a lengthy discussion with the General Manager we drove the view home with the transmission slipping and a lack of acceleration that was not present before I had it towed there earlier this week. The VUE used to be responsive but now when attempting to accelerate into traffic or when passing/overtaking another vehicle, there is a significant 3 second delay from the time you press the pedal to the time the VUE accelerates and slips.

The VUE will be going back to the dealer Monday.

A voluntary recall is overdue on the VTI transmissions.

Today I contacted all the local and national media outlets that I could find email addresses for. One of them will bite on this and hopefully Saturn will get a surge of VTI survivors contacting them.

[Uzzy]

Alright, then...it's working, trade it in. :yes:

[dcooney]

Uh no.... the transmission is slipping.
Another dealer wont take it and I certainly can't sell it.

[Uzzy]

Uh no.... the transmission is slipping.
Another dealer wont take it and I certainly can't sell it.

Is it slipping right now? If it is, they should replace it. I say go to another Saturn dealer if they don't. And if it's not, why won't another dealer take it?

[dcooney]

Update:

So we drove the car home from the dealer last night (Saturday) with the transmission slipping and one transmission stall (RPM's & no forward motion) on the highway with no warning lights of any kind.

Now this morning (Sunday) my wife drove the VUE to meet me at church and the car suddenly down shifted and displayed the reduced power & engine light. I knew it would happen again but I didn't expect it so soon. Luckily she was on a two lane road at 30 mph with hardly any traffic. She drove the last 1/2 mile to church but later when we left only the engine light was on with the transmission slipping.

All I can think of is how adamant the service department at South County Saturn was less than 24 hours earlier about how "fine" and "ready" the car was to drive. This is the problem when a company forces a technician to rely strictly on codes and does not allow them to troubleshoot a problem with hands on troubleshooting and diagnostics. Where are all the old school mechanics?

It looks like the crack Service Department and Service Manager at South County Saturn will get yet another chance to get it right.

I am not sure if I should have it towed again since I can't rely on Saturn to take care of the towing or if I should just drive it on the bad transmission and risk tearing up the power train and risking our safety.

These are the type the choices you leave us with Saturn...

[1AuraOwner]

The reason you don't find "old school mechanics" in dealers anymore is because they are flat rate. The Technician would have no problems spending 2 hours driving your vehicle around to duplicate the concern. Problem is that they don't get paid for it.. Here's how it works. The car comes in with a concern. The tech hooks up a scanner looking for codes. If there are no codes the tech will check the fluid and test drive the vehicle a few miles to attempt to duplicate the concern. If the tech can't duplicate at that time then they must ship the vehicle...All this without getting paid a penny...In most dealerships the tech will try to duplicate the problem as best as he can.. Maybe even spend 30-45 minutes between checking codes, doing their paper work and test driving the vehicle.......Problem is that they just can't spend 1/2 a day on every warranty ticket just attempting to duplicate the concern..Especiasly when replacing the case half, trans filter, torque converter, and cooler lines only pays roughly 6-7 hours including a pressure test and diagnosis.. On certain days when the only work in the shop is warranty work it's even possible for the tech to work for 8-10 hours a day and only get paid for 3 or 4...
I'm sure they have attempted to duplicate the concern to a certain extent....We all know these VTI's suck... If this is your first replacement you have done good...Saturn tested the VTI on this vehicle and could not get it right. That's why they have extended the warranty coverage and are covering them.. They tried something new and failed miserably. Nissan and Ford both have VTi's now and both have relatively small issues.. Some of the ION coupes even have the same VTI as the VUE with very little problem...Less of a load I guess...The only thing I can say is that Saturn has bit the bullet on these VTI's and have probably lost $$ on every VUE sold with a VTI...Not bad for customer service compared to some other automotive companies...Try getting Chrysler to cover 1/2 the crap on their powertrain warranty without all the maintiance paperwork..The South Koren are just as bad...Ford for example had problems with spark plugs shooting out of the head destroying the heads and coils...Only "correct" fix was to replace both heads. If you repaired the cylinder odds are that another cylinder was going to blow a plug within 6 months....Domestic companies are not the only ones to do this...Foreign companies are just as bad...
GM has really stepped up in the last few years to attempt to correct their prior design flaws, IMO.....3/36 covers "defects in materials and workmanship" or something like that...Even though this is an obvious design flaw, technically after 3/36 they could say to bad...
Best thing to do IMO, is take the vehicle to them, talk to the service writer about the driveability issue and request to have a tech test drive with you so you can physically duplicate the problem with the tech in the vehicle..If you do this 90% of the time it will act up...I wish every customer would request a test drive with a tech to duplicate a driveability or noise problem...It cuts down on the paperwork when you can't duplicate, it also takes the guess work out of the problem and gives the cust a chance to speak directly to the tech.. Also this gives you a little more control over the situation. If it doesn't act up in the first few miles of the test drive, ask the tech to jump on the interstate and drive it for another 5-10 miles...They usually will without any problems.. It should act up, if it doesn't then you can understand why they can't authorize a $1000 repair bill to every customer almost out of warranty who wants their tranny rebuilt without duplicating...If it does act up, as it sounds as it almost certianly should, then you are golden.

[BobbyP]

Update:

So we drove the car home from the dealer last night (Saturday) with the transmission slipping and one transmission stall (RPM's & no forward motion) on the highway with no warning lights of any kind.

Now this morning (Sunday) my wife drove the VUE to meet me at church and the car suddenly down shifted and displayed the reduced power & engine light. I knew it would happen again but I didn't expect it so soon. Luckily she was on a two lane road at 30 mph with hardly any traffic. She drove the last 1/2 mile to church but later when we left only the engine light was on with the transmission slipping.

All I can think of is how adamant the service department at South County Saturn was less than 24 hours earlier about how "fine" and "ready" the car was to drive. This is the problem when a company forces a technician to rely strictly on codes and does not allow them to troubleshoot a problem with hands on troubleshooting and diagnostics. Where are all the old school mechanics?

It looks like the crack Service Department and Service Manager at South County Saturn will get yet another chance to get it right.

I am not sure if I should have it towed again since I can't rely on Saturn to take care of the towing or if I should just drive it on the bad transmission and risk tearing up the power train and risking our safety.

These are the type the choices you leave us with Saturn...

I was very disappointed that Saturn did not handle the VTi experiment better than they did. Unfortunately that's the way corporate America works today. I would have wanted them to replace them all with 4 speed automatics.

The only and best way out for most VTi owners is to trade in their VUE's for a new one at the Saturn dealer. The Saturn dealer knowing the situation you're in usually gives the maximum amount of trade in, and then auctions off your VUE to a used car dealer.

The VTi came about when GM and Fiat were heavy in merger negotiations. There was some cooperative sharing of technology. The VTi is assembled at a General Motors/Fiat joint venture plant in Szentgotthard, Hungary. It has 12 steel bands inside an aluminum casing. GM thought the bands were good for 100k miles at a minimum. They stopped using the VTi in 2004 because of it's high failure rate.

I don't know of anyone that owns a Nissan Murano w/ a CVT. It was made by JATCO. Many people say that the Nissan CVT's were not a picture of perfection either.

http://www.nissanmurano.org/forums/showthread/t-10037.html

[dcooney]

1AuraOwner,

Thanks for the informative reply.

I now understand how the warranty repair system works now but in this case the system is broken.

[1AuraOwner]

Bobby, I agree. Maybe when they first found the high failure rate they should have swapped over to an automatic.. I've seen vues that had 3-4 transmissions replaced..I've even seen them replace one in a vue with 95K miles.(unusual, but it was a very good customer who bought all "so called" dealer recommended maintainces.)
I haven't sat down and done the math, but it is possible that if they had replaced all the VTI's from the beginning they wouldn't have had to spend $1500 1-5 times per vue rebuilding the VTIs. Problem is now that they are mostly out of warranty, and that would make absolutely zero sence from a business prospective..IMO though, GM has done a very good job and has gotten 100x better at listening to their customers..Back in the days or Ford Vs. Gm. Vs. Chrysler the manufactures could build sub-par vehicles and make money on future repairs.. In todays market, with good quality, foreign vehicles being made, it is a much different market and IMO GM has finally realized to compete they must make a vehicle that can compete and IMO has really stepped up and now makes a product equal to or better than the foreign competitors....
There's no doubt that the manufactures makes certain sub-par parts for return business.. Look at Honda in the early 90's they made an almost bullet proof car and quickly realized they had no one trading them in until the wheels fell off....Every car has it's issues..
Certain model Luxus SUVS= transmission failures.
Nissan 3.0 (used for and rated the #1 motor for 10-12 years in a row).. starting in 2000 every 3.0 had all 6 ign coils and MAF sensors go out of them..
VUEs= Pretty much only common issue on all vues I can think of is front links fail at about 40-50K miles
Gm 3.4= intake manifold gasket..=Which brings me to my point. GM finally took the 3.4 (A great motor) that had a leaking intake manifold gasket problem and redesigned it. They rerouted the exhaust system away from the intake to prevent the intake from expaning/contracting so much...They came redesigned it with a 3.5L that I think will be a very competative motor.

dcooney: I symphacize with you and hope for your sake they did attempt to dupliacte the concern. no system is 100% perfect...Take the healthcare system, fair trade VS. free trade, etc. They all have flaws.. The way that the GM warranty procedure works is pretty good, both to Saturn and to the customer..
Problem is that they can't afford to replace stuff that they can't confirm isn't broken. Especially to a known issue to a vehicle that is almost out of warranty..If you where on the flip side of things you'de be amazed on how many people come in 10 miles before their warranty expires complaining of non-existant issues, just to get known commonly bad parts replaced with new ones...
Best bet is to ALWAYS go on a test drive with the tech and physically duplicate the concern with them whenever possible...Then there can be no "could not duplicate" concerns, unless you where there with the tech, in which case you would not be able to duplicate the concern either.

EDIT: BTW, if you do think the dealer is being lazy, which is very possible, then read your paperwork...The service writer should have recorded in and out miles..

If the vehicle came in and the paperwork says 72345 miles for example and when leaving the service bay you see the vehicle has 72346 miles you know they didn't really test drive it. If you brought it in and the paperwork shows 72345 in miles and you see 72355 miles on the odometer when leaving then you know the tech did attempt to duplicate the concern.

On a side note, if you do end up taking the vehicle in and duplicating the concern, this will give you some "proof" that you weren't lying about the original cause. If they end up doing the repair, they may be able to end up getting your tow covered...If not a "nice" phone call to the district rep may not hurt...of course follow your chain of command first..
1.)service writer
2.)service manager
3.)general manager
4.)saturn rep or follow your owners manual.

[1AuraOwner]

I can't edit, so i'm going to add

you can also sort of threaten your service writer...Tell them that you are "completely satisified" with this dealership's service, however if you don't get reimbursed for your tow fee you will be "completely unsatisfied" and will make it clear when you get your survey in the mail..it all depends on if they reimburse you..

The service advisors get paid a % based on their C.S.I. score.. It's not really a fair rool, because alot of times they get screwed by following procedure, as in your case for example, but this determines their paycheck..

We had a sales associate who had 100% CSI..Very good and ethical sales associate. He sold a car to a disgruntled customer who bought a car 1 week before a big mark down. That mark down could not be applied to this guests car, and the guest took it out on the survey he received. The sales associate lost an $800 bonus because of the one survey...He had absolutely no control over what happened to this customer, but got screwed because the customer ws unhappy with saturn, not his experience with this specific associate...So these surveys can serve as some leverage....Just remember when filling it out, that it may or may not be the service or techs fault...Always check in mileage and compare to what it is when you're leaving on a could not duplicate concern.

[dcooney]

1AuraOwner,

It's funny you mentioned the recording of the mileage.

I would love to check the test drive mileage but I do not have any paperwork from the last visit and I did not record he mileage myself.

Both the General Sales Manager and I were baffled that the Service Department refused to provide me with a receipt upon picking up the car Saturday night.

I asked three different times for the paperwork because I wanted to verify that "warranty repairs" were done so they would take care of the $90.00 towing bill.

The service writer claimed that they didn't do any repairs because they couldn't duplicate the problem.

I demanded to see the paperwork completed by the tech. I was able to get a quick peek and it said something like "Test drive, no problem found, added additive, drove again, could no duplicate"

At the same time I was asking "Why did you put the additive in there BEFORE attempting the extended test drive? Of course they won't duplicate the problem now."

The Service Writer said they did everything that Saturn tells them to do.
I said "Oh, so they followed the technical bulletin?"

I explained "If they put an additive in the transmission per the technical bulletin they technically DID do a warranty repair and the towing should be covered."

The Service Writer said that the Service Manager would have to handle it on Monday. I asked for a receipt again and he said they would mail it to me. All this while he has the paperwork in his hand.

I explained this to the General Sales Manager and he just shook his head and was embarrassed at how we were being treated. Then HE went to get a receipt and returned with nothing. I am not sure what all the cover up is about but I will be sharing all of this with all of the contacts I have been writing to so far including Ron Hoover at the Lakin Law Firm (http://www.lakinlaw.com/) (handling the VTI Class Action (http://www.lakinlaw.com/CM/NewsFlash/Saturn-Owners-File-Class-Action-Over-Transmission-Failures.asp)), the Missouri Attorney General (http://ago.mo.gov/consumercomplaint.htm), the NHTSA (http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/complaints/) and all the local and national consumer fraud reporters I have found email addresses for;

KTVI-TV (http://www.myfoxstl.com/myfox/pages/InsideFox/Detail?contentId=826404&version=2&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=5.3.1)
KMOV-TV (http://www.kmov.com/about/bios/chamraz.htm)
KSDK-TV (http://www.ksdk.com/company/bios/team.aspx)
CBS News (http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/eveningnews/consumer/main500262.shtml)
NBC (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18616878/)
Fox News (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,77538,00.html)
CNN (http://www.cnn.com/feedback/)

If one of the media contacts calls soon, I will ask them to meet me in front of the Dealership to talk about the VTI.

I've done this once before and ended on the local Fox station in St Louis about an issue with my builder. It's amazing how fast things happen when it ends up on TV.

At this point, it's more than getting this car fixed. I am just as interested in getting the word out to all of the VUE/VTI owners that don't have a clue about this death trap.

dcooney
St Louis

[dcooney]

That didn't take long...

I got a call today from the local CBS affiliate and they want to do the story.

Does anyone in the Missouri/Illinois Area want to share their defective VTI story? Email me and I will get you in touch with the reporter. Don't wait, this will happen fast.

dcooney
St Louis

dcooney_dump@charter.net




.

[dcooney]

Forgot the most important part.... the update:

It will be easier to paste the email I wrote to the Local Saturn Dealer. It was also copied to Saturn Customer Care, Lakin Law Firm and many media contacts. The names have been edited and titles have been added. In additon, the letter has been shortened to under 10000 characters per this forums parameters

To whom it may concern,

After our Saturn VUE was in your service department for 3 days it was given the all clear on Saturday, my family and I arrived at the dealership to pick up the car and return the loaner that Mr. XXXX (General Sales Manager) and Mr. XXXXXXX (Salesman) set us up with. Considering the major safety issues we have already experienced, the major defects associated with the VTI transmission, the thousands of stories by other Saturn VUE owners that I have read and the class action suit filed in October 2007 I knew that there was no way our VUE could have been cleared to drive safely by the Service Manager simply by a technician adding a transmission additive. We reluctantly returned to pick it up late Saturday afternoon.

I am not sure why I was refused a copy of my paperwork when we picked up the VUE . I requested it several times and never received it. Please do not tell me it wasn’t ready. You had already called us to come in and pick up our car earlier that morning. We arrived around 4:20 pm, probably six hours later, and began getting the run around about our paperwork. Something is obviously going on here and it makes me wonder if there is something to hide. The Service Writer gave me all of 5 seconds to look at the paperwork. I quickly read that a test drive was done and an additive was put in the transmission. I left a copy of our $90.00 tow bill with the paperwork. I consider the additive to be warranty work so I will expect the tow bill to be reimbursed. Eventually I was handed the keys and was told that the paperwork would be done next week and mailed to us. I should have refused the car without the service paperwork considering what happened later but we needed a vehicle to get home.

Mr. XXXXX (Service Manager), you and I both know that the additive, GM’s Dex-CVT, is nothing more than a band-aid to a much larger problem and it never should have been added to the transmission when trying to duplicate the real problem of sudden power loss/transmission failure. You and your technicians probably don’t really understand that GM’s Dex-CVT (patent application # 10/365358) is simply an additive that is intended as service fill. This additive is simply an ATF fluid with an antifoam agent that was invented by GM to help dissipate foam and surface air bubbles created by impurities and entrained air. This air expands in the low pressure inlet of the pump and is compressed in the high pressure outlet side of the pump typically causing the audible pump “whine” that many VTI/CVT owners complain of. Now that you understand, you may now realize that your additive did absolutely nothing to repair the actual problem with the transmission. In my opinion, as soon as this additive was introduced to the transmission the ‘test drive” was over. It did not matter how long the technician drove the car or if he/she drove it home for a few days You cannot “duplicate the problem” unless the car is in an “as-is” condition and exactly the same as the moment it came off the tow truck.

<edit> Now you and I know that under the idea of not getting paid the Saturn Technician may not be digging as hard as the real world mechanic would. In this case, this type of work doesn’t even qualify as troubleshooting. This diagnostic/troubleshooting procedure is broken and leads to you sending my family on the road in a vehicle that has a high potential for causing an accident and possibly injuring or killing my family.

After I left with my wife and 2 year old son in the car we experienced the following problems with the VUE that South County Saturn (Dealer) deemed fit for use;
• A slipping transmission
• A consistent three second delay before the transmission engaged when demanding acceleration
• A sudden loss of power/forward movement

All of these are a problem but I am most concerned about the sudden loss of power/forward movement. THIS IS EXACTLY THE SITUATION I WARNED YOU ALL OF. Because your Service Department’s stubbornness, lack of performing proper tests, and most important to you… “getting paid”, we were put in an unsafe vehicle in which we had no choice but to drive. Your policy and procedures put us in a car with a failing transmission that stalled in the middle lane of Highway 55, dropping our speed immediately to less than 20 mph with no acceleration and no ability to maneuver. This caused us to coast across two lanes of traffic traveling towards us from the rear in excess of 60-70 MPH. Eventually, with cars passing and honking, we coasted to the shoulder crossing two lanes endangering us and motorist coming from behind. I put the VUE in park, then again in drive and the transmission seemed to engage. How did this car go out the out the door? Because of your lax troubleshooting/repair procedures on one of the biggest power train defects by any manufacturer in modern history.

Mr. XXXXX (Service Manager), previously you had all but confirmed the real problem. I know that you know what the problem is and you know that I know what the problem is. You also explained that you could replace the transmission but you don’t want to “lose $4,500” because “you won’t get paid”. You advised me to drive the car until the codes reappeared. Only then could you transmit those codes to Saturn so you could “get paid”. At this point I really don’t care about your computer codes or how you get paid to do warranty work. In the future you probably shouldn’t waste your time explaining to an already dissatisfied customer how “I won’t get paid if….” or refer to your Warranty Department and Corporate Office as “They”. As far as I’m concerned, you are all Saturn, Inc. and your internal issues mean nothing to me when my wife is risking her and our son’s life driving a car that you deem “fine” because you “can’t get paid” to fix the problem that you already suspect is happening. This situation is way beyond your petty corporate policies. Frankly you and your company are lucky that nothing happened there on the highway Saturday night when the transmission failed once again. It sure would have looked funny that your service department would not provide a receipt for the “repairs” that night upon request if we would have had an accident.

Now yesterday (Sunday), we were in a position where we needed two vehicles. My wife and I drove separately to attend Church at 9:00 am. I stayed because I work at the 11:00 am service and she drove the VUE home about 3 miles. She was going to meet me back at Church at 12:15 so we could drive the VUE back to your Service Department for the problems I explained above. Around 12:15 pm while my wife was on her way to meet me at Church the VUE suddenly lost power and she experienced some kind of downshift. In addition, the service engine and reduced power lights came on. This now makes it the eighth time this has happened since the problem started last week. Luckily she was on Larkin Williams Road near Fenton Park with no traffic and only traveling about 30 MPH. She called and I had her drive the last ½ mile to Church. From there when the car was restarted only the service engine light came on. We drove the car to our home where it now sits… completely useless and unsafe.

We are now at a point where you need to get our 2003 VUE VTI Transmission replaced or you can buy the VUE back at full price. In addition, consider with two out of four attempts to resolve the problem, you are half way to invoking the Missouri Lemon Law.

Eventually if this is resolved and once we are out of the extended power train warranty I will end our business relationship. After what I have experienced, I never again want to be treated as I have by a company that falsely boasts their “hassle-free” business model.

The VUE will be sitting at my home with the keys under the front floor mat if you choose to pick it up for repair. If not, let me know and I will do your footwork and arrange for a tow sometime during my workday. You can also let me know how you would like to handle a rental or loaner for my wife. Please don’t bother if you are going to call again threatening that we will be charged for additional rental days on an Enterprise Rental Car if you “cannot duplicate the problem”. Again, if I need to do your footwork, let me know and later I will seek reimbursement for a rental car.

I have maintained detailed documentation and will continue to do so until this is resolved. I will expect all copies of the service orders that are due to me including those from my last visit as well as detailed summaries of all 23 Technical Service Bulletins registered with the NHTSA on the 2003 VUE’s Power Train including #040730024A “NO MOVEMENT IN DRIVE OR REVERSE WITH OR WITHOUT DIAGNOSTIC TROUBLE CODES (DTCS)”. This should not be a problem (as it was Saturday) because I was referred to your dealership for these documents by Saturn Customer Care.

<edit>

There is no customer service in knowingly putting a customer in an unsafe vehicle to generate codes so you can get paid. Absolutely absurd…


Regards,

XXXXXX XXXXXX
XXX XXXXXXXX XX
XXXXXX XX XXXXX
XXX-XXX-XXXX

[spencerb]

I understand that Saturn is very picky about authorizing warranty repairs. I suspect that they are required to do certain diagnostic tests before replacing a part. I bet Saturn wouldn't pay for a new transmission before trying the additive first. This is not a decision the dealer can make; they have to prove to Saturn that the transmission is in fact bad according to procedure.

Unfortunately, this means that you will most likely face a failure of the transmission while in use. Sometimes it will bring you to a dead stop, and other times you can limp home.

Make sure you clarify with the dealer the warranty, specifically that if the final failure occurs after the warranty is up, that it will cover the transmission because of documented previous problems.

The method of diagnosing and repair is standard for any defect. For example, if your engine misses, they will put in new spark plugs before replacing the engine. Replacing a part is the last resort, and they have to confirm that it is in fact bad and not other "fix" will work.

Hopefully any media report will mention that Saturn is aware of the problem, gave an extended warranty, and phased the VTi out of production. The real issue for you is that the repair procedures leave you uncertain about potential future failures.

[DAS]

Report your incident to NHTSA (National Highway and Transportation (?) Safety Administration Association) as soon as possible. We had the same type of incident. If they receive enough of these reports may be they take some action!

[F-Bobby]

i was waiting to see something like this pop up. We've had a number of these have th chains totally come apart on them in the middle of driving. IM sorry you ever had to experiance this. Ive only been with saturn for ayear, and im about to do my 19th VTI Rebuild/replacement when i come back from vacation. I really cant belive there hasnt been a safety recall about these damn things. they are just giant pieces of ****. If the news station wants a quote from me I'll gladly give them one.


BTW Toyota Tried these things too, and as far as I know they recalled all of them and put new transmissions in them, NON VTI transmissions.

[F-Bobby]

Report your incident to NHTSA (National Highway and Transportation (?) Safety Administration Association) as soon as possible. We had the same type of incident. If they receive enough of these reports may be they take some action!

unfotunatley since these vehicles arent produced anymore, there really isnt much they can do. I dont think they would perform a safety recall since that body style isnt even made anymore. but who knows. maybe it will get the word out to people not to buy these ****boxes.

[The Critic]

BTW Toyota Tried these things too, and as far as I know they recalled all of them and put new transmissions in them, NON VTI transmissions.

Actually, Toyota's CVTs are probably the biggest "CVT success story." They are using them in all the hybrids and they have been extremely reliable. Many of these units are last well over 200k miles, often with the original oil fill.

[F-Bobby]

Actually, Toyota's CVTs are probably the biggest "CVT success story." They are using them in all the hybrids and they have been extremely reliable. Many of these units are last well over 200k miles, often with the original oil fill.

I could have sworn toyota recalled theirs. I guess ill have to go double check.

[2Fast4U]

Do your story and ream out Saturn, dealership and GM. The major problem is that when looking at nhtsa I don't see a RECALL on the VUE for the vti. Anytime a vehicle has a problem/defect that can cause ireputable vehicle harm or personal injury that vehicle should be recalled. GM is a bunch of bazdards. You learned the hard way. Also, never buy cutting edge type technology like a cvt. Take your money and get a Highlander or something.

[MoparNut]

As you have stated, the additive WILL NOT CORRECT any defect-it is merely designed to PREVENT problems, in the same way limited-slip additive is put into a posi-traction rear axle. The transaxle needs to be torn down, the case side cover, torque converter, filter and possibly the input/output speed sensors replaced.

Also, the cooler lines should be replaced if they are the old-style with a bypass valve and the newest, CORRECT software version must be installed. This is the only way to fix the VTi properly with a concern like yours. Also, the fluid and additive should be changed every 50,000 miles to prevent further problems if and when you do repair the trans. You should have also done this 18,XXX miles ago-did you?

That being said, IMO you should not expect Saturn to recall or pay for it. Your car is getting old and is high-mileage. You received a generous warranty extension at no cost to you because Saturn stepped up to the plate due to a high # of VTi problems. Threatening everyone at the dealership level for doing what they MUST do (following GM procedures) and calling in the media is, quite frankly, irresponsible behavior. I understand your concern for your family's safety and I am glad they are alright. Why did you not refuse to drive away with the car after the first visit when you have a 2nd vehicle? I know it would have been an inconvenience, but don't blame Saturn and the dealer for putting your wife in an unsafe situation more that once, that responsibilty falls squarely upon YOU, sir.

Sorry if I am being harsh, but I get a bit defensive when people slam Saturn and it's techs when they have car trouble. It is a machine and will break and you cannot expect that it never will. As stated earlier, Nissan also has a CVT and they have a ton of trouble with them (our Nissan franchise has a STACK behind their shop to be returned to Nissan).

I wish you good luck with your VUE, but I urge you to call off the bloodsucking lawyers and sit down with the GM of your dealership and work it out like men.

[clemsonsaturn]

As you have stated, the additive WILL NOT CORRECT any defect-it is merely designed to PREVENT problems, in the same way limited-slip additive is put into a posi-traction rear axle. The transaxle needs to be torn down, the case side cover, torque converter, filter and possibly the input/output speed sensors replaced.

Also, the cooler lines should be replaced if they are the old-style with a bypass valve and the newest, CORRECT software version must be installed. This is the only way to fix the VTi properly with a concern like yours. Also, the fluid and additive should be changed every 50,000 miles to prevent further problems if and when you do repair the trans. You should have also done this 18,XXX miles ago-did you?

That being said, IMO you should not expect Saturn to recall or pay for it. Your car is getting old and is high-mileage. You received a generous warranty extension at no cost to you because Saturn stepped up to the plate due to a high # of VTi problems. Threatening everyone at the dealership level for doing what they MUST do (following GM procedures) and calling in the media is, quite frankly, irresponsible behavior. I understand your concern for your family's safety and I am glad they are alright. Why did you not refuse to drive away with the car after the first visit when you have a 2nd vehicle? I know it would have been an inconvenience, but don't blame Saturn and the dealer for putting your wife in an unsafe situation more that once, that responsibilty falls squarely upon YOU, sir.

Sorry if I am being harsh, but I get a bit defensive when people slam Saturn and it's techs when they have car trouble. It is a machine and will break and you cannot expect that it never will. As stated earlier, Nissan also has a CVT and they have a ton of trouble with them (our Nissan franchise has a STACK behind their shop to be returned to Nissan).

I wish you good luck with your VUE, but I urge you to call off the bloodsucking lawyers and sit down with the GM of your dealership and work it out like men.

He is not being irresponsible at all. I think he is doing the right thing by getting the media involved and getting the word out. It irritates me when people get mad at others for causing "attention" to be drawn, but it's what he needs to do to get something done about it. Corporations (even Saturn) will make you go through as many hoops as possible in hopes that you will get fed up, and just roll over. The correct thing to do is go higher and higher and get louder and louder until something gets done. If nothing else it wastes other's time like they have wasted his. This isn't something like a $5 item either, it's a CAR that people work hard for.

I'm glad you have called the media, and I hope your story gets aired. You are actually a little more tame than I would be if I owned a VUE with a VTI. Good luck with the story and I hope it gets something rolling.

As far as the trading it in on another VUE...I'd skip that. I'd skip Saturn all together and go to another brand. Why would you want to continue giving them business after all of this?

[SaturnVUE04]

Although I don't have a Vti equipped VUE, I do feel bad for you. I would keep driving it (although unsafe) in hopes of having the Vti bite the bullet. Also be careful since you're flirting with the end of the FIVE year warranty. It all depends on when your car was titled/purchased though. Keep that in mind since you are not near the 75k mark, BUT you are near the 5 year mark.
Maybe if you drive it a bit harder than normal, it might fail quicker. (I'm not suggesting driving like an animal, but maybe accelerating quicker than normal, etc.)
Some have suggested trying another dealership.
Maybe purchase a used car (non-saturn since you probably won't want ot stay with them) from the same dealership. Are any dealerships a part of a big group of different dealership brands?
Let us know
-Joe

[Tethys]

dcooney,

Have you tried any of the Fusz dealerships (Metro East, Creve Coeur, North County or St. Charles County)? If you live in south St. Louis County it makes sense why you took the Vue to the SoCo Saturn but maybe even a drive to his West County facility might help (it will soon move/has moved to the Chesterfield Valley from Manchester & 141, where it started). If you refuse to set foot in another Butler retailer, then try Fusz.

SaturnVUE04 - we have two Saturn networks in St. Louis, Jim Butler and Lou Fusz. Butler has two stores plus a third in Cape Girardeau, two hours south on I-55, while Fusz has the other four stores in the metro area and one in Columbia, two hours west of town on I-70.

[redkees@msn.com]

It's a shame you got treated so poorly. Keep the pressure on, make the dealer work on an equitable trade. If you can trade it in for a non VTI product you're better off in the long run.

[Chriscnl]

Sorry to hear your story about the VTi transaxle in your Vue...I am a Saturn Technician...This situation sounds like the MECHANIC was lazy. Given the code that it had in your vehicles TCM, most likely the code TSB was would have instructed to replace the case half. I don't know in the right mind of the MECHANIC that he/she would put a customer's family in endanger...I have dealt with situation on Vti like this before...If i cannot duplicate the concern and i have DTC's I still put it a case, i usually hope that the thing does not move so that I can put a reman Transaxle in it for the sake of the customer. Sorry to hear this story, hope the class action falls through. I hope the Service Manager gets burn too.

[F-Bobby]

Sorry to hear your story about the VTi transaxle in your Vue...I am a Saturn Technician...This situation sounds like the MECHANIC was lazy. Given the code that it had in your vehicles TCM, most likely the code TSB was would have instructed to replace the case half. I don't know in the right mind of the MECHANIC that he/she would put a customer's family in endanger...I have dealt with situation on Vti like this before...If i cannot duplicate the concern and i have DTC's I still put it a case, i usually hope that the thing does not move so that I can put a reman Transaxle in it for the sake of the customer. Sorry to hear this story, hope the class action falls through. I hope the Service Manager gets burn too.

I'm the same way man. I hear these things and i just know a case cover isnt gonna fix it. Most of the time I pull the valve body cover off and if i find a lot of metal deposits i reccomend putting a full trans in the car. My manager has now seen that when i reccoemd a full trans that he should listen cause so far ive said it twice and putting a cover in did not fix the problem at all.

i had one the that chain self destructed and my DM happened to be there that day so i showed him first hand why i reccomended a full transmission instead of a cover. Now he never questions it when i ask to do one.

[CrewCab]

As a VTi survivor...

It's a transmission, NOT CANCER!

[mikec]

It's a transmission, NOT CANCER!

Ahh, but like cancer, it can have fatal results. I got stranded on a desolate road in 20 degree weather when my VTi crapped out. It was January 22nd, 2007. I had to wait 2 hours for the tow truck. So, yes, I consider myself a survivor.

[spencerb]

I got stranded on a desolate road in 20 degree weather when my VTi crapped out.You don't need a transmission to run the engine and heater.

At idle a little bit of gas goes a long way. You can idle for days on a full tank.

[mikec]

And I did. However, the worry that something could go wrong with your vehicle because of it's transmission as well as the frustration you feel when it does is something that you can't understand unless you experience it. I lost alot of time and money when I had my VTi problems. So I can empathize with the original poster.

However, my Saturn dealer gave me a decent trade towards my current Vue so I'm happy. I just hope that the original poster of this thread does the same thing and saves himself the aggravation of going the legal route.

[gary p]

Don't blame Saturn and the dealer for putting your wife in an unsafe situation more that once, that responsibilty falls squarely upon YOU, sir.


Harsh, but true. Sucks that you are experiencing trouble. But at this point if you choose to continue driving (or have a family member drive) a vehicle that you beleive is unsafe instead of taking any of a number of other obvious courses of action, inconvenient as they may be, you have assumed responsibility for the consequences.

[gary p]

* I understand the warranty was extended on on the VTI transmission

Depending on the original delivery date of the vehicle with a VTI it may not be a warranty extension but rather a special service policy. There's a significant legal difference between the two terms. Best understand which one your car has, and what the difference is if your VIN is under the "service policy" umbrella, before you start playing hardball.

[gary p]

I I would have wanted them to replace them all with 4 speed automatics.

Has anyone successfully done just this on their own? The machanics of the swap would seem simple enough, although I don't know about the electronics.

[2Fast4U]

I know it would have been an inconvenience, but don't blame Saturn and the dealer for putting your wife in an unsafe situation more that once, that responsibilty falls squarely upon YOU, sir.


You are way off base here. If he had only one vehicle and it was the Vue then he shouldn't drive? Okay, maybe he should drive the Vue and his wife the other vehicle but we don't know the circumstance. This is A GM problem. They need to stand up and fix it by replacing that tranny all together or even doing a vehicle buy back. This is a known SAFETY issue and should have been RECALLED. This isn't a tune up that he neglected and it's stalling out in traffic from fouled out plugs.

[MoparNut]

I'm the same way man. I hear these things and i just know a case cover isnt gonna fix it. Most of the time I pull the valve body cover off and if i find a lot of metal deposits i reccomend putting a full trans in the car. My manager has now seen that when i reccoemd a full trans that he should listen cause so far ive said it twice and putting a cover in did not fix the problem at all.

i had one the that chain self destructed and my DM happened to be there that day so i showed him first hand why i reccomended a full transmission instead of a cover. Now he never questions it when i ask to do one.

99% of the time there's no reason to put a whole box in it , even with total belt failure. Tear it down all the way and make everything as clean as Mother Teresa's snatch:whoa: They never hurt the case and it pays much better. Haven't had a single one come back and I have done over 100. Can R&R and overhaul in 4-5 hours even on an AWD, warranty pays squat on replacement only-saves on your department's warranty dollars, too. Send 'em all my way, guys-I'll be happy to rebuild them!:D

[MoparNut]

You are way off base here. If he had only one vehicle and it was the Vue then he shouldn't drive? Okay, maybe he should drive the Vue and his wife the other vehicle but we don't know the circumstance. This is A GM problem. They need to stand up and fix it by replacing that tranny all together or even doing a vehicle buy back. This is a known SAFETY issue and should have been RECALLED. This isn't a tune up that he neglected and it's stalling out in traffic from fouled out plugs.

I'm going off the info he gave that he has a second car. I agree if the VUE was his only car he would have had to rent a car or borrow one. I also agree with the other techs here-I would have fixed the trans on his first visit if he was at my shop and not made him come back.

That being said, his dealer is following GM's diagnostic procedure and shouldn't be crucified for it. There may be other issues we don't know about here-perhaps his dealer had replaced too many transmissions in the past and is on restriction from GM for having excessive warranty dollars? That doesn't help this poor guy, but it is a possible scenario.

As for the possible lack of maintenance, he never answered my question as to whether he changed the fluid and additive at 50,000 miles. I firmly believe that the 5yr/75,000 mile policy should be voided if the owner doesn't service their transaxle fluid- just like if you don't change your oil and filter you shouldn't get an engine repair if it fails.

I hope he has resolved this issue without getting the media involved - how about an update DCooney?

[Mr Joe Handyman]

I know I am joining the thread a bit late, but wanted to offer my two cents.

Actually, Toyota's CVTs are probably the biggest "CVT success story." They are using them in all the hybrids and they have been extremely reliable. Many of these units are last well over 200k miles, often with the original oil fill.

From what I understand, (based on some information I got from talking to one of the techs that assisted in developing the Vti tranny, and also from more recent research conducted on the issue,) the main reason that the Vti fails so much is because the Vue is too heavy for it. Toyota has had great success with it in the cars, but I seem to recall them having some issues early on with it in the Rav4 and then ditching it from the trucks for a while. I think that with some design changes, and by limiting it to the smaller cars, Saturns Vti would have been a success also.

I still own an '04 Vti, the car currently has only about 25,000 miles on it, but I have had a very similar case as dcooney's original post. They weren't able to replicate it, and addrd the additinve to the tranny. (My story differs a bit because I started with the 3-second pause before the stalls and dcooney's stalled first.) After a couple more trips they were able to determine that there was an issue with the controller in the transmission and replaced it. That was about 13,000 miles ago and we haven't had any trouble with it since other than the occational 3-second hesitation when starting from zero. (that can be critical when you are crossing a freeway from a stop sign.)

[Uzzy]

I know I am joining the thread a bit late, but wanted to offer my two cents.

From what I understand, (based on some information I got from talking to one of the techs that assisted in developing the Vti tranny, and also from more recent research conducted on the issue,) the main reason that the Vti fails so much is because the Vue is too heavy for it. Toyota has had great success with it in the cars, but I seem to recall them having some issues early on with it in the Rav4 and then ditching it from the trucks for a while. I think that with some design changes, and by limiting it to the smaller cars, Saturns Vti would have been a success also.That's what I've been saying for a while. And Saturn and Nissan techs (Nissan also uses CVTs in their cars and SUVs) have said that in the cars, they work great. Hardly any trouble from them. No more than a conventional automatic transmission. In the SUVs, they are nothing but trouble.

[The Critic]

I know I am joining the thread a bit late, but wanted to offer my two cents.



From what I understand, (based on some information I got from talking to one of the techs that assisted in developing the Vti tranny, and also from more recent research conducted on the issue,) the main reason that the Vti fails so much is because the Vue is too heavy for it. Toyota has had great success with it in the cars, but I seem to recall them having some issues early on with it in the Rav4 and then ditching it from the trucks for a while. I think that with some design changes, and by limiting it to the smaller cars, Saturns Vti would have been a success also.

I know GM's driveline fluids leader, who is responsible for developing GM's transmission and driveline fluids. He wouldn't tell me the exact reasons why the VTi was failing, but he did say that GM is contracting its efforts on 6-speed automatics instead.

BTW, Toyota only used the CVT in the Prius, Highlander Hybrid and Camry Hybrid in the US market. No other applications use the CVT. As far as I know, they have had tremendous success with the CVT in these applications.

[sdcpa86]

Just want to add my experience with this defective transmission and my dealings with Saturn.

I bought my '03 Vue used at about 62,000 miles. The engine went out after about 2 months and the transmission failed about 5 months later. Nobody but the dealer will replace it because only the dealer has access to the parts. The dealer quoted me $4,800 for the transmission replacement.

I contacted Saturn through their web-site to express my complete disgust and frustration with this &$##$%( vehicle. :x. They tracked me down through the dealer that did the repair, and treated my complaint as a request for reimbursement, and indicated that I should have contacted them with my request before I had work done.

In the meantime I was doing some research and came across a forum that mentioned the Lakin Law firm and their class action for this very issue. I contacted the law firm and got some info on what their lawsuit was based on-- very helpful. I then told the friendly victim service rep who called me every other day to tell me she was working hard on my request, that I was aware of the law suit concerning their DEFECTIVE TRANSMISSION. Shortly after that, I got a call indicating that they were going to reimburse my repair in full. I provided that info back to the law firm and they indicated that I was the first they had heard of that got the full reimbursement offered.

It took another 2 months for Saturn to actually follow through with the reimbursement -- and many more phone calls -- but the check finally arrived.

My advice when dealing with Saturn is to make sure you let them know that you are aware of the lawsuit, and that you have done your research and know that the transmission in this vehicle is a design flaw.

I agree with previous posts that Saturn needs to acknowledge that this is a problem and issue a recall.

I have also seen posts saying that Saturn dealers will give you a fair trade-in for another Saturn, but the last thing I want is another Saturn. This company will not take responsibility for their defective product. They instead do whatever they can to get the poor saps that end up with one pay dealer repair rates so they can continue to make profit on these junkmobiles.

Good Luck to the Lakin Law firm

[Uzzy]

I agree with previous posts that Saturn needs to acknowledge that this is a problem and issue a recall. That is not going to happen. Not any time soon, anyway. They can't issue a recall, because they don't have a permanent fix for it. THey have acknoledged it is a problem, by extending all of the factory warranties, but a recall is not an option at this point, because all they are doing is fixing a known problem, by replacing with the same problem.

[sdcpa86]

That is not going to happen. Not any time soon, anyway. They can't issue a recall, because they don't have a permanent fix for it. THey have acknoledged it is a problem, by extending all of the factory warranties, but a recall is not an option at this point, because all they are doing is fixing a known problem, by replacing with the same problem.

That isn't my experience with customer care. They never actually acknowledged that "Yes. There is a problem with that vehicle and we will make it right." Instead, I spent over 2 months fighting with them to get a reimbursement (almost 50% of the car value, and just after having to replace an engine). I wasted a lot of time (and experienced a lot of frustration) in dealing with Saturn. I got no where until I mentioned the law suit, and they never informed me of the extension of the factory warranty. I found out through forums like this.

Even if they haven't come up with a permanent fix, there has to be a better way to handle it than what I experienced. Making their parts readily available for one. Dropping the amount they are charging to fix this problem for another. If this were a $1,000 repair, I would have fixed it and moved on, but that isn't the case. Saturn made their profit on the sale and they are going to continue to wring out every penny they can out of the repairs. And treat their customers poorly at the same time.

Saturn is a terrible company to do business with. :mad:

[Uzzy]

That isn't my experience with customer care. They never actually acknowledged that "Yes. There is a problem with that vehicle and we will make it right." Instead, I spent over 2 months fighting with them to get a reimbursement (almost 50% of the car value, and just after having to replace an engine). I wasted a lot of time (and experienced a lot of frustration) in dealing with Saturn. I got no where until I mentioned the law suit, and they never informed me of the extension of the factory warranty. I found out through forums like this.

Even if they haven't come up with a permanent fix, there has to be a better way to handle it than what I experienced. Making their parts readily available for one. Dropping the amount they are charging to fix this problem for another. If this were a $1,000 repair, I would have fixed it and moved on, but that isn't the case. Saturn made their profit on the sale and they are going to continue to wring out every penny they can out of the repairs. And treat their customers poorly at the same time.

Saturn is a terrible company to do business with. :mad:
Extending the warranty period is admission of a problem. Why did you have to pay anything? Is your VUE over 5 years old, or over 75,000miles? If not it was a warranty repair. I'm sorry you had such a problem. For most people Saturn is an excellent company to do business with, but not everybody has the same experiences.

[Mr Joe Handyman]

That is not going to happen. Not any time soon, anyway. They can't issue a recall, because they don't have a permanent fix for it. THey have acknoledged it is a problem, by extending all of the factory warranties, but a recall is not an option at this point, because all they are doing is fixing a known problem, by replacing with the same problem.

Wouldn't the permament fix be to drop a non-Vti tranny into it?

[Uzzy]

Wouldn't the permament fix be to drop a non-Vti tranny into it?

Yes, but that's not really possible at this point without some custom modifications from what I understand. It would likely be cheaper and easier to replace the vehicle, but I don't think they want to start down that slippery slope. :no:

[john95SW2]

Yes, but that's not really possible at this point without some custom modifications from what I understand. It would likely be cheaper and easier to replace the vehicle, but I don't think they want to start down that slippery slope. :no:

Anyone know how many were sold with the VTi?

[john95SW2]

99% of the time there's no reason to put a whole box in it , even with total belt failure. Tear it down all the way and make everything as clean as Mother Teresa's snatch:whoa: They never hurt the case and it pays much better. Haven't had a single one come back and I have done over 100. Can R&R and overhaul in 4-5 hours even on an AWD, warranty pays squat on replacement only-saves on your department's warranty dollars, too. Send 'em all my way, guys-I'll be happy to rebuild them!:D

I'm curious - You say that you've never had one come back, any idea how long its been since you did the first one this way?

[MoparNut]

I've been overhauling them for over 4 years now. The only ones we ever saw back were back in '03 before they had the revised parts available and we had to put the same crap in we were taking out.

As for the posts about CVTs being trouble-free in lighter cars, it seemed that way here for a long time. We didn't see Ion Vti failures for the first few years but have seen a spike in the last 12 mos or so. Still fewer than VUEs, but that could be because we sold A LOT of VUEs!

[piney]

Doesn't this experience make you want to buy a hybrid General Motors product? Or even the Volt? Nothing like being a beta tester with your hard-earned money. :no:

[Uzzy]

Doesn't this experience make you want to buy a hybrid General Motors product? Or even the Volt? Nothing like being a beta tester with your hard-earned money. :no:

The VTi was devloped by a Fiat and built by a Hungarian comapny. GM didn't really have much to do with it.

[piney]

The VTi was devloped by a Fiat and built by a Hungarian comapny. GM didn't really have much to do with it.

Did Fiat put it in the cars without GM knowing about it? If so, there are problems. If not, GM had a lot to do with it. :yes:

The substance of one's character is not what you do when someone is watching but what you do when nobody is watching. When nobody is watching, GM tells customers with documented problem products to go pound sand and that is the worst kind of character I can imagine.

[1AuraOwner]

I'm curious - You say that you've never had one come back, any idea how long its been since you did the first one this way?

I know this post wasn't for me, but since I also rebuild them I'll respond.

I've seen both come back...rebuilt and replaced transmissions..Usually @ 25,000-40,000 miles..
The key when rebuilding the VTI is to ALWAYS follow the bulletin for intermittant no movement, not the bulletin for no movement...The no movement bulletin lists to replace only the case half and filter. The intermittant no movement bulletin also says to replace the torque converter and restricted oil cooler lines.. As long as you replace all those parts the rebuilt transmission will be JUST as good as the assembly being sent to you.

Sdcpa, sounds like a problem with your specific dealer...
That price is awful hefty for a case half, gaskets, fluids, etc....Sounds like your dealer was more interested on the higher profit of a customer pay job, rather than getting it covered under warranty for customer interest..
I would recommend going to a different dealer for now on.

My Joe handyman: I would recommend you looking into bulletin # 05-07-30-004..If they can duplicate your concern you may be able to get this fixed.

[dcooney]

2003 Saturn Vue VTI Breakdown #4

Well... it happened again. The same Vue referenced in the beginning of this thread has broken down once again. This will now be the fourth documented service (and about 8-10 failures) since December 4th, 2007 and all in less than 3000 miles.

After the December 17th rebuild (case cover, torque converter, lines, seals, valve body, etc. with debris in case cover), this last evening 2/12/08, my wife was driving and the VTI died ONCE AGAIN during acceleration. The indicators were the engine light and reduced power light. She drove another mile at 10-15 mph to her mothers house where it sits once again.

I called Saturn Roadside Assistance to arrange for it to be towed to the dealer. I explained that this service has been and still should be covered. The rep on the phone said that it was not covered. I reminded her about the power train warranty extension that Saturn sent to the VTI owners and she had no clue what I was talking about. She could only offer to charge me for the tow at this time. I refused and told her to let it sit until they could make contact tomorrow to get approval. She said that I would have to call again in the morning.... unreal. So now I have to start the process all over again and do the footwork for Saturn even though I have already made the initial contact. This is the most p*ss poor service I have ever experienced from ANYONE... ANYWHERE. It only makes it worse that Saturn touts it's customer service over and over.

The Saturn policy's and procedures have their employees so hand tied they cannot even make a simple decision in the name of customer service. I talked to two departments and the dealership and all were like deer in headlights because of a policy/procedure or a computer that prevented them from providing proper service in this situation.

This car is the biggest POS I have ever driven and Saturn continues to deny that there is a widespread problem that a simple warranty extension will not fix.

As I explained to Saturn Customer Assistance tonight... this is truly one of those cases where nothing will be done until someone gets killed. Saturn has proven that it will take nothing less to handle this situation properly. This is the most unethical and unsafe handling of a major defect that I have ever heard of.

In Missouri we have the "Missouri Lemon Law" that protects car buyers form this type of treatment. As of tonight, I believe that this car has now met the criteria for return/replacement but I will be looking into that further tomorrow.

Sure, it is easy for certain Saturn Fanboys in this forum to say "trade it in" or "what do you expect"... blah blah blah. The fact is, I have about five payments left on this vehicle and now it is likely that I will have to get into another car that will carry a price heavier than what this car is worth or more likely, more than what a dealer will want to give for a known POS like this. This will leave me with more payments than I had originally planned for. Like most vehicle owners, my goal was just to have a dependable car that is paid for.... not one that I have to worry about dropping $5000.00 into several times between the warranty expiration and the life of the car.

I was contacted by the local media and had several discussions back in December/January. It kind of died off due to other stories but believe me, I will now pursue the media option with every spare moment that I have.

dcooney

[dcooney]

Attached are copies of the actual repair invoice from December 2007.

DCooney






.

[Uzzy]

Did Fiat put it in the cars without GM knowing about it? If so, there are problems. If not, GM had a lot to do with it. :yes:

The substance of one's character is not what you do when someone is watching but what you do when nobody is watching. When nobody is watching, GM tells customers with documented problem products to go pound sand and that is the worst kind of character I can imagine.

My point was it was not GM engineered. I'll now try to re-enact how the whole VTi thing went down...

GM: Hi Fiat, so we've got a fairly substantial stake in you now, perhaps you could share some technology with us.

Fiat: I'll tell-a you what, I got a sweet transmission you're gonna love, I show you it.

GM: Well umm, ok, I guess.

Fiat: Dis is eet. You like eet or what? You love eet, I know.

GM: WTF is that? :snide:

Fiat: Eeesa CVT! No gears, just belts.

GM: Belts?

Fiat: Yes belts, you heard me. Wassa matter you got a canolli in-a your ear?

GM: Ahh-

Fiat: It's works good, for sure. You'll love it. Lotsa companies use it, Toyota, Nissan Hyundai used to, it saves gas and it was design by Leonardo DaVinci 400 years ago.

GM: You mean like the DaVinci code?

Fait: No, stupid, that book-a not out yet, it's only like the year 2000 right now. :hmpf:

GM: Oh. Well this is nice and all, but we were thinking more along the lines of some Ferrari stuff.

Fiat: Wassa matta fo you?

GM: Huh?

Fiat: You think Imma gonna give you Ferrari stuff?

GM: Why not?

Fiat: It's Ferrari, dat's-a why not!

GM: Well what if I take some of these stupid transmissions?

Fiat: Maybe.

GM: OK, fine we'll put them in some small SUVs to boost the fuel economy on them.

Fiat: You sure that's a good idea? :xeye:

GM: Ya, why not? :snide:

Fiat: No reason :|

(Over the course of the next few years Fiat re-organizes it's buisness so that the portions that GM bought into do not have anythng to with Ferrari. Fiat still owns Ferrari but the buisness is essentially severed from Fiat proper)

GM: So Fiat, it's been a while now, how about that Ferrari stuff?

Fiat: What Ferrari stuff?

GM: You know some Ferrari tech so we can learn some secrets and make our cars better.

Fiat: I don't know what you mean. :|

GM: :mad: Don't mess around, we bought into you to get our paws on Ferrari and then we took your stupid CVTs and now we want some payback.

Fiat: Well I don-na have no Ferrari stuff, so pees off.

GM: What do you mean? You're Fiat, you own Ferrari.

Fiat: No, that's the other Fiat.

GM: What other Fiat?

Fiat: The one that you don't have any stake in, that one. :p

GM: What? :upset: I bought into your stupid company, bought your stupid Hungarian built CVTs, which are crap in our SUVs and now you don't have any Ferrari stuff?

Fiat: :no: :p

GM: :x We're done with you!!

Fiat: Farfungula! That'll be 2 billion dollars, please :D

GM: :hothead:

Though, I do agree that GM should be handling the VTi cases better now than they have been.

[BruceHR]

As I write this, my '03 Vue is at the dealer. The transmission started going Sunday night on the way to church. The dreaded 3-second delay and loss of power. When we tried to back it out of the garage yesterday, it wouldn't go. In fact, reverse appeared to mean "forward". I had it towed to the dealer this morning.

The only problems I've had with the dealer so far are that they didn't call to tell me that they found the transmission is the problem. The extended warranty is going to cover it, plus the cost of the tow. The other problem I had is that the assistant service manager told me on the phone that they would cover a rental car, but the service manager (the assistant is out today) says no, they just give us a discount, which isn't much. $30 a day for a Ford Focus is what I would expect to pay.

[john95SW2]

I've been overhauling them for over 4 years now. The only ones we ever saw back were back in '03 before they had the revised parts available and we had to put the same crap in we were taking out.

As for the posts about CVTs being trouble-free in lighter cars, it seemed that way here for a long time. We didn't see Ion Vti failures for the first few years but have seen a spike in the last 12 mos or so. Still fewer than VUEs, but that could be because we sold A LOT of VUEs!

Interesting......guess its flawed no matter what you put it on.

I always wondered about how long they would last - Where I used to work we had a gearbox that drove a processing unit (chemical plant) and it was a Link Belt PIV variable drive similar to the design of the VTi (metal belt & variable pitch pulleys) and it was a constant maintenance problem...belts breaking, pulleys shot, etc...) The basic design has been around for at least 50 years AFAIK...At the time when they came out I didn't think such a high maintenance design was a good idea in a car...guess maybe I was right.

[cdp326]

Sure, it is easy for certain Saturn Fanboys in this forum to say "trade it in" or "what do you expect"... blah blah blah. The fact is, I have about five payments left on this vehicle and now it is likely that I will have to get into another car that will carry a price heavier than what this car is worth or more likely, more than what a dealer will want to give for a known POS like this. This will leave me with more payments than I had originally planned for. Like most vehicle owners, my goal was just to have a dependable car that is paid for.... not one that I have to worry about dropping $5000.00 into several times between the warranty expiration and the life of the car.
Those fanboys...you mean some people who have been in the exact same situation?

Okay.

[piney]

Attached are copies of the actual repair invoice from December 2007.

DCooney
.

At least you know they thoroughly road tested it to assure your safety. That whole mile must have been very rigorous. :dazed::dizzy:

[mellissam]

....this is truly one of those cases where nothing will be done until someone gets killed. Saturn has proven that it will take nothing less to handle this situation properly. This is the most unethical and unsafe handling of a major defect that I have ever heard of.......

While I sympathize with your plight, this fangirl doesn't quite see a blown VTI as something that would get you killed. We aren't flying airplanes. Many folks have survived a tire blowout, running out of gas or other engine malfunction.

I do see the VTI as one big screw-up by GM. They obviously were not tested over the long haul.

Good luck in getting restitution for your Vue....

[sdcpa86]

Sdcpa, sounds like a problem with your specific dealer...
That price is awful hefty for a case half, gaskets, fluids, etc....Sounds like your dealer was more interested on the higher profit of a customer pay job, rather than getting it covered under warranty for customer interest..
I would recommend going to a different dealer for now on.


They replaced the entire transmission. I wasn't given an option of any type of re-build. And.. this is the closest dealer at 50 miles. I'm not willing to tow/travel much further than that for repairs. If there was something special about this vehicle, maybe, but it really is (and was intended to be) just your basic grocery-getter.

Another gripe... had both the dealer and the customer service rep I dealt with tell me the replacement transmission would be warrantied for a year. But, I can't get anyone to put it in writing, and the bottom of the invoice states pretty clearly that there is no warranty. Any guesses as to where I'll come out on my next transmission failure?

[mikec]

Trade'em in, guys. It will be like a burden lifted from your shoulders. Take the loss and chalk it up to experience. I did.

[sdcpa86]

While I sympathize with your plight, this fangirl doesn't quite see a blown VTI as something that would get you killed. We aren't flying airplanes. Many folks have survived a tire blowout, running out of gas or other engine malfunction.

I do see the VTI as one big screw-up by GM. They obviously were not tested over the long haul.

Good luck in getting restitution for your Vue....

Haven't people also died from a tire blowout, or other engine malfunction?

[Uzzy]

Haven't people also died from a tire blowout, or other engine malfunction?

"Your vehicle can get you killed" is a more appropriate title, I think.

[mellissam]

Haven't people also died from a tire blowout, or other engine malfunction?

I suppose anything can get you killed, and a tire blowout in a high centre of gravity vehicle could do it (read: firestone debacle). I haven't heard of too many 'loss of engine power' getting you killed, but if there is a will, there is way, I suppose. However, I put those down to Darwin. ;)

If you aren't prepared to have your engine die on you while driving...tough luck. I fly recreationally, and those Lycoming engines are pretty bullet-proof, but crap happens, so a good pilot is always looking for a place to set it down.

[dcooney]

While I sympathize with your plight, this fangirl doesn't quite see a blown VTI as something that would get you killed. We aren't flying airplanes. Many folks have survived a tire blowout, running out of gas or other engine malfunction.


What some of you fail to realize is that any injury or death directly related to a VTI failure is PREVENTABLE by GM/Saturn.

PERIOD!

dcooney

[mellissam]

What some of you fail to realize is that any injury or death directly related to a VTI failure is PREVENTABLE by GM/Saturn.

PERIOD!

dcooney

I guess you didn't read the previous threads...
So, how many deaths and injuries have been reported due to the failure of a VTI?
How about none (Period)

[dcooney]

I guess you didn't read the previous threads...
So, how many deaths and injuries have been reported due to the failure of a VTI?
How about none (Period)


How many haven't?
You don't know either... thats the point. Nobody knows.
Eventually it will take a serious injury of fatality as well as GM/Saturn losing their *ss in a lawsuit before they will do the right thing.

[spencerb]

What some of you fail to realize is that any injury or death directly related to a VTI failure is PREVENTABLE by GM/Saturn.What can they do to prevent it? They can't swap the transmission to an unlike model (e.g. the 4-speed auto) by law (it would void the original emissions, economy, and power certifications). So I guess they only thing they can do is to reengineer the VTi to make it more reliable, but in reality it would probably be cheaper for them to just buyback all VTi VUEs.

If Saturn had a reasonable fix for the VTi, they would have done it already.

I agree that loss of power is a safety concern. But in reality it's rare (if ever) that someone gets killed because their car died.

[MoparNut]

DCooney...I'm curious by your latest breakdown...are you ABSOLUTELY sure it's the transmission? You say it's never been duplicated at the dealer on their (admittedly) short test drives. You say the most recent occurance resulted in a power loss and reduced top speed. Sounds like a partially plugged catalytic converter. This would usually only occur after the exhaust got hot during a longer drive.

Of course, it may very well be a trans problem, but going by the invoice provided the tech at your dealer has at least used the correct parts and hopefully installed the correct software. I can't speak to the quality of the actual repair done, but it is a very simple trans to overhaul.

Just something to double check...good luck with your VUE.

Next time..."Put a new Dodge in your garage":D:usa:

[MoparNut]

is the most p*ss poor service I have ever experienced from ANYONE... ANYWHERE. It only makes it worse that Saturn touts it's customer service over and over.
dcooney


To be fair, Saturn does not exist anymore (at least not as it was envisioned). You are dealing with General Motors now, the company that treated it's customers so badly Saturn needed to be 'born' to show them the way. You likely would not have been treated this way several years ago...sad. My 2 cents is Saturn may face the same fate as Oldsmobile...

[tigger5]

Seems Ill be joining th eranks of tranny probs here....I have on SEVERAL occasions mentioned that the tranny is acting up...dealer so far has always made "band aid" repairs....this weekend, the vue did not move enymore...had to wind up the engine ..now it seems ok but im off to the dealer this week ..unfortunatly, it is a 2003 that i got in nov 2002...so as near as i know the guarentee is over...shame there is only 63000 km on it...I have always had gm cars, but got to say in all honesty, with the problems and run a rounds I had with this vue (dealer and from gm custumer service), i will NEVER own another gm..... gm should NOT be sooo surprised that they r not number 1 in the world anymore..with this kind of product/service

[tigger5]

forgot to mention...
often replies say to get rid of (exchange) for a nwer model...thanx but no thanx...just finished 5yrs of "paying"...i have no intention of starting over

[Uzzy]

forgot to mention...
often replies say to get rid of (exchange) for a nwer model...thanx but no thanx...just finished 5yrs of "paying"...i have no intention of starting over

Because that is what you should do. The VTi will fail and it will cost a few thousand dollars to fix. It likely won't get you killed but it will be an expensive inconvenience.

And GM is still #1...for now. They'll let Toyota live under that burden for a while as GM re-goups, which is what they need right now.

[sdcpa86]

Well, my replacement transmission lasted almost a full 3 months. Guess you can't expect much more than that out of a $4,200 part. But seriosly, why does a vehicle have to pick the absolute worst time to take it's dump. On my way out of town to watch my high school senior compete in his once-in-a-lifetime state championship wrestling tournament 2 1/2 hours away. In the middle of the busiest intersection in town, during morning rush hour. And I still couldn't get someone to T-bone this F...ing lemon.

[beltman]

Uzzy: Let's get one thing straight

It was GM who designed the VTI. A team of GM engineers in the US, Ypsilanti was responsible for the detailed design of the hardware and software of the VTI transmission. Some of the transmission parts came from subsuppliers but the overall responsibility for design testing and validation lies with GM and not with FIAT. Fiat made their own CVT design already many years before GM (based on the same engineering concepts)

The plant in Hungary who was responsible for the manufacturing of the VTI was a GM plant (Opel, GM Europe).

And in reply to some postings:
The CVT's used in the Prius and other (Hybrid) Toyota vehicles can not be compared to the VTI since they are based on a completely different engineering design concept for a CVT system and hence with the same name :yes:

[Uzzy]

Uzzy: Let's get one thing straight

It was GM who designed the VTI. A team of GM engineers in the US, Ypsilanti was responsible for the detailed design of the hardware and software of the VTI transmission. Some of the transmission parts came from subsuppliers but the overall responsibility for design testing and validation lies with GM and not with FIAT. Fiat made their own CVT design already many years before GM (based on the same engineering concepts)

The plant in Hungary who was responsible for the manufacturing of the VTI was a GM plant (Opel, GM Europe).OH. I was under the impression that GM recieved it as part of the FIATsco of several years aog, since it was built in a Hungarian plant that Fiat used. Well If you're in the know, I have no data to disprove you, nor any reason to try. And I was just in a comical mood with the whole I-talian convo. Still, it is a turd of a tranny.

And I know Nissan has had similar problems with their CVT transmissions working rather well in the passenger cars, but in the SUVs they are very troublesome, close to the problems of the VTi. I have a friend that is a Tech at a Nissan dealership, which is owned by the same owner of the Saturn dealer (and a VW, GM Used and P/B/GMC) and the Satrun and Nissan techs trade horror stories of the CVTs on the SUVs. There was another member on this site that says Toyota sufferes much the same fate with it's CVTs as well. It would seem they really don't like the heavier applications. :no:

What kind of belt, are you anyway, beltman? I happen to work at Gates, that's why I asked. :D